Are they saying every ordinary Russian is inside of Putin 😳
In every Putin there’s an ordinary Russian Citizen.
Define Putin
The framing here does not say “they are military targets”. It strikes out the negative to assert the positive, i.e., it is in discourse with a depoliticizing narrative that “I have nothing to do with Putin’s war, don’t touch my Wildberries”. It really is at the same level as saying that ordinary Americans and ordinary Israelis are not innocent of the Iran war, the Gaza genocide etc. It is saying to the population: you can’t wash your hands of this.
Now, that said, this is a flat nationalistic way of saying this, and it’s a war propaganda poster.
Edit, yup, in the original Instagram post, that’s exactly the framing, not “kill’em all”:
Russia is slowly being welcomed back. Western celebrities are performing in Russia again. Russian athletes are gradually returning to international competitions. Russians are being welcomed back into cultural and public spaces - all while Russia’s war against Ukraine continues. Behind this normalization lies a familiar argument: don’t punish ordinary Russians for Putin’s war. They have nothing to do with it. But is this really just Putin’s war? Let’s debunk one of the most persistent - and convenient - myths about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
It talks about normalization in culture and sports, it doesn’t talk about killing them.
So why put an AK-47 in the “Ordinary Russians”? And they post that after weeks of killing Russian civilians this is pure bullshit.
I’m not here to defend Ukrainian war crimes. As to the ak47, I wrote:
Now, that said, this is a flat nationalistic way of saying this, and it’s a war propaganda poster.
So, it is depicting Russian citizens as combatants, that‘s what you‘re trying to say?
Sure, if you ignore all the rest of the framing, it is just doing that.
The framing of depicting them alongside and identically to a bunch of things the Ukranian government wants to kill?
Are we playing snakes and ladders? Go to the top of the thread: https://lemmy.ca/comment/24728683
That’s what you’re trying to convince people the framing is, the actual framing can be seen by anyone with eyes.
That’s still pretty disgusting, literally arguing that Russians should be expelled from culture and public spaces. It may not be “kill them all” but it is essentially “ethnically cleanse them”
…what do you think Russia has been trying to do to Ukraine?
None of the things mentioned, but it wouldn’t matter if they did; ethnic cleansing as a form of collective punishment is still monstrous you soulless ghoul.
… you definitely know what words means
So because the US killed Iranian citizens, now Iran gets to kill American citizens? Is that how it works?
Yeah, probably. You invade a country without a good reason ans kill civvies, why wouldn’t retaliation be on the table?
You don’t get to invade a country and maintain any sort of moral high ground. Israel, the US, Russia. It’s all the same shit at the end of the day. But Tmthe US sucking doesn’t automatically make their opponents the good guys. Russia sucks too and you would have to be a completely brainwashed moron not to realize that.
Do you read your own comments before posting? Do you even understand what you’re saying?
Killing civilians is not retaliation. It’s a specifically prohibited war crime, with punishment up to death for those responsible. It’s not supposed to ever happen, regardless of which side you’re on.
If someone kills your family member, you don’t get to kill a family member of theirs and call it even. That’s not how any of this works. If societies operated like this, we’d all be dead already.
By your logic - you wouldn’t mind being pointlessly slaughtered just because your government (that you didn’t vote for) decided to arbitrarily invade another country (which you protested against), would you? Or having a global nuclear wasteland, because that’s the only thing endless escalation leads to?
You don’t get to invade a country and maintain any sort of moral high ground. Israel, the US, Russia. It’s all the same shit at the end of the day.
It doesn’t matter who’s invading whom. Killing civilians is despicable, period. Anyone responsible for it should be held accountable to the highest degree possible. Regardless which side they’re from. Both Ukraine and Russia, just like both US and Iran should answer for all crimes committed. There are no excuses for any of this.
Being a victim of an invasion doesn’t immediately give you immunity or permission to do whatever the hell you feel like doing. Just like if someone breaks into your house, you don’t get to do the same or worse to them.
Literally reversing victim and offender here. Ukraine spent eight years trying to ethnically cleanse their east, killed 14,000 civillians, and now that Russia has stopped them and is waging a war 10 times safer for civillians than America’s unprovoked full scale invasion of Iraq, now libs wanna call that ethnic cleansing.
Show me the policies, show me the outlawing of culture and language, show me the death squads. I can show you all of those things from the Ukrainian government.
Oh man. Are you really defending the clear aggressor in an obviously unjust war?
Surely the entire world is wrong about this one and we’re being mean to poor, innocent Russia who clearly did nothing wrong.
Surely the entire world is wrong about this one
The “entire world” being the western powers of Amerika and friends.
Are you really defending the clear aggressor in an obviously unjust war?
Man it would be so cool to be a dipshit who thinks you can describe wars like a barfight between two people, as if thats how countries work. Too bad it’s not one of those just wars that Ukraine participates in, like the US-Israel war on Iran
But to reiterate, no, I’m against the Holocaust participant-worshipping nazi regime that attempted genocide on a subset of it’s own people before being stopped by Russia.
The entire world
“The entire white empire”
Anyway,
Show me the policies, show me the outlawing of culture and language, show me the death squads. I can show you all of those things from the Ukrainian government.
Show me any of this or shut up.
How dare you post the original context of the post - that goes against the narrative!
How could they put it clearer?
Does that say “we consider civilians military targets?”
Yes.
Edit: and not only do they say that, they also practice it by showing have shown that they have no qualms about killing civilians.
Oh? Does it? Can you point to where it says “we, the Ukrainian government are proclaiming to the world that we are targeting civilians?”
I don’t see any evidence to back up the claim, so I’m afraid I can’t agree to your assertion. A single image that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways (as I describe elsewhere in fact), is not any sort of proof I consider valid.
I’m greatly interested if you have other evidence to suggest the claim is true, as that would constitute a significant crime.
Edit (as it appears you have included further context in an edit): What I am wanting to see is a documented pattern of Ukrainian military personnel attacking civilians. I’m not talking about buildings - I want to see the UAF doing the same shit the IDF does to innocent Palestinians (that the world chooses to ignore).
Modern mechanized warfare by definition effectively forces civilian and military targets together because they rely on the same infrastructure to function (power plants, railroads, bridges, etc.) Does that make striking those things right? Well, no, but war itself isn’t exactly “right,” but striking those targets for their military value with civilian impact being collateral damage is a far cry from the IDF’s double-tapping of aid workers.
Just today Ukraine killed 13 civilians and wounded another 80.
They also suicide-bombed a restaurant last week.
This is inexcusable.
Can you point to where it says “we, the Ukrainian government are proclaiming to the world that we are targeting civilians?”
Can you point to where Charlie Kirk ever said “I am racist”?
…Yes? How does saying ordinary russians are to blame, depicting them holding AKs, imply anything else?
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Even if it’s implying lesser culpability, how does that not imply civilians are legitimate targets, when it’s still implying culpability?
That’s some Bibi shit.
Nooooooooo… not the wholesome europeans.
civilians are not civilians , I’ve heard this one before
Holy shit this thread really drawn out the inner Israel in so many libs.
yikes
Why ukraine had an issue with 7 of october then?
Because Hamas attacked Israeli military bases and Israeli armed terrorists are innocent civilians.
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Drawing ordinary Russians with an AK sure implies something else. Enlighten us.
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That would be a historical first.
On socials? Maybe. But I don’t think it’s the first. A particular geno-country said everyone one that they want out, is a terrorist.
In real life. Since when do regular people have an interest in war?
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Yes. Under the guise of “everything is Hamas” of course.
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Alright I didn’t realize you came here to troll and lie. You had your source bye.
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Yup, name a more iconic duo then obvious Russian propaganda on .ml and “post removed” everywhere in the comments. Ml really is our /r/conservative
The only people I ban are Liberals screeching that everyone is a paid Russian shill. But keep crawling into that victim role while insulting everyone.
Edit: and one guy who excused bombing schools and online shopping warehouses
To people used to imperial propaganda, the absence of imperial propaganda feels like propaganda
Kindness is Punk
Unless it’s towards ze enemies of ze Nation, amirite?
We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.
– William Casey, 13th CIA Director
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“Is it poor taste to draw civilians as military targets while we broaden our campaign to target civilians and civilian infrastructure? Parhaps…”
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This comment is some insane Ukrainian apologia.
The image clearly depicts an ordinary Russian holding a rifle, standing next to 3 publicly declared military targets, with a caption saying ordinary civilians are to blame. It really doesn’t get more obvious than this.
We can argue about some broader context, like extremely entitled Russians crying because their stupid berry business is losing money. But that does nothing to change the fact that the image itself sends a message to the effect of: “Russian civilians are our enemies.”
And we already know for a fact they are. Ukraine has repeatedly demonstrated that it has absolutely no issues with striking civilian targets.
Note that none of this means Russia is any better. Criticizing Ukraine (for self evident war crimes, no less) is not pro-Russia. It’s anti-war-crimes, period. Both of the sides can, and seem to be, fascist shitholes with no regard for international law, or even as simple a value as life.
Just because Ukraine is the victim in this war, doesn’t mean it’s immediately a good country, and doesn’t mean it now gets to do whatever it wants. Just like the US Empire attacking Iran doesn’t make the Iranian government good guys, and doesn’t justify any Iranian war crimes.
Focus on the content of the image and it’s reasonable to say a Russian citizen holding an AK is an enemy. Ukraine is full of them.
You want to insist on my nuance but how many dead friends and family would you need to see it plainly for what it is.
“No no, this poster encouraging collective punishment of civillians is correct actually”
-The good guys
You people have gone fully insane
Funny how it’s always silent about the Russia side of those same war crimes though.
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It really is, not even directly defending the poster in and of itself but it didn’t happen in a vacuum and pretending it did is apologia for nation that invaded sovereign soil unprovoked, murders civilians in cold blood and then to point at this as an out after YEARS of this conflict?
Yeah it’s not really about the poster, they support Russia’s invasion, anti-imperialist only if it’s the USA I guess
Like the saying always goes, if Russia stops there’s no war, if Ukraine stops there’s no Ukraine.
Agreed, it one thing to say this poster is too far but that isn’t what they’re doing. They’re using it to paint Ukrainians as the aggressor which they very clearly are not.
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Title is incorrect
You can choose to ignore subtext, but it really doesn’t make any sense to hold reality to your whims.
Do not conflate your interpretation with objective reality
Yeah, i’m just interpreting that baguette as an assault rifle …
It’s clearly an assault rifle. You interpret that as meaning they are enemy combatants. I would interpret it as placing blame for the war on them.
Yeah, that’s why the gun had to be there.
What visual metaphor would you have used instead?
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I don’t know how they could put it clearer?
There’s certain implications to having the matryoshka doll labeled ordinary Russians holding a rifle wouldn’t you say?
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I think it’s a bit of a stretch
I disagree. In large text calling civilians responsible for the war and then depicting them as combatants has very clear implications.
Russia is the only one firing rockets and drones at hospitals and schools
Not really true unfortunately, there’s the starobilsk dormitory and the Novoaidar district hospital strikes off the top of my head not to mind the shelling of civilians in the Donbas since 2014. It’s not really a one side or the other in this war when it comes to crimes (not that it has ever been such is the horror of war).
I have decided not to extend the benefit of the doubt to the government who’s ethnic cleansing campaign against Russian people kicked off this war
Can you expand on this a bit
Absolutely, I generally do not trust or support people who do things like this:
Or do you mean the war thing?
Are we supposed to pretend Russia doesn’t have the same neonazi problem Ukraine has?
neonazi problem Ukraine has?
The neonazi problem that is the government of Ukraine and is stuffing Ukranian men into vans to be sent to the meat grinder?
Because Russia is not doing that.
I don’t know what you’re thinking you’re doing here. My response was referring to the “toleration” of nazi groupings in the Ukrainian army, saying that yes in fact neonazis are a general problem in this war because the Russian army also “tolerates” nazis in its ranks.
You’re responding to that by diluting the issue to something else completely, and changing the subject to “recruitment” tactics and the devaluing of the lives of soldiers.
That’s quite a bizarre way to change the subject from nazis operating in the open in the Ukrainian and the Russian armies. I guess it’s rhetorically “effective” because now I’m supposed to respond to this other thing but it’s frankly dishonest and it’s hushing up the neonazi issue. Enjoy your upvotes I guess.
You dummy, if both sides have a neo-nazi problem, then the side that has neo-nazi as their government AND as the military branch (AZOV) is the much, much more serious problem to worry about. Especially if that neo-nazi government and military is being aided by western powers.
Oh, aided by western powers who also aid “Israel” in their genocidal quest of eradicating Palestine? Zelensky also said he wants Ukraine to be the “Israel” of Europe btw.
If you’re not already banned you soon will be. You’re not allowed to question Russian propaganda on communities that end in .ml
They always “claim” to be progressive and good. But immediately ban anyone who points out facts.
Russia has absolutely been throwing young men into the meat grinder. Hold Ukraine responsible sure but don’t lie.
Is it combing the country with kidnapping squads to force terrified fathers and sons into vans?
I was following the existence of these groups for a while back in the day. Their crimes does not make an excuse to annex a country. Maybe everyone’s got that COVID brain now but if you can focus a bit you night remember that Russia keeps annexing independent countries whether or not there’s nationalist boogiemen present.
But I’m sure foreign intervention is cool to you types, after all the US does it so it’s fine right?
Their crimes does not make an excuse to annex a country.
Nobody is trying to annex Ukraine dude, not before the war and definitely not now. I don’t know where you guys get the idea that you can just Say Shit and have it count in an argument, but that is not the case. This war began in part because the Russian Federation would not abide the presence on their border of a fascist puppet government of a nuclear-armed enemy coalition that has helped pillage it’s economy and kill millions of it’s people within living memory.
Do you know what would happen if Russia annexed Ukraine? That’s right, their border would now be with Poland, a member of the nuclear-armed enemy coalition that etc etc. Except now their border would be a salient vulnerable from three sides and they would also be tied down by administering the basket case that western Ukraine has become. I am begging you people to stop thinking that life is a movie and Russians are the unthinking orc bad guys, and actually consider the strategic situation from their position. They don’t fucking want Ukraine. Not even NATO fucking wants Ukraine. Ukraine is a spent munition.
Russia keeps annexing independent countries
Source: my fevered dreams
And again, this is something NATO and the US do constantly, nonstop, while accusing their enemies of doing. It’s an incredibly predictable pattern. They did in in Ukraine dude. They’ve been doing it since after WW2. Invade/coup a country on the other side od the world. Install fascists to administer it for you. Declare it an independent state. Instigate further conflict, claim locals started it. We must defend South Korea. We must defend South Vietnam. We must defend Ukraine. Bam, you are now “defending the sovereignty” of a people whose government you picked for them, and whose struggling bodies you have thrown into conscription vans for a war you started from thousands of miles away and are making bank off of. It is so very depressing that after most of a century, this trick still works on liberals, and it works because they want to believe it.
But I’m sure foreign intervention is cool to you types, after all the US does it so it’s fine right?
-You in 1944, smugly opposing D-Day
I don’t know where you guys get the idea that you can just Say Shit and have it count in an argument
Because they’re nazis. They literally don’t give a shit. It’s the enemy. You can just say whatever you want about the enemy. If someone argues with you then you’ve rooted out a spy.
I don’t think Russians are Orcs. Quite a bit of them have tried not to go to war. Many of them keep dying for mysterious reasons. I think their leader-for-life is an ex-kgb oligarch tool from an oligarchic era and he murders any other political possibilities that try to happen in his country. It’s just weird as fuck that people defend his actions but not really when you look at the IP addresses of war pigs on twitter
Not going to give you sources because you are a lost cause doing state shit for a state. People who know, they know. But you’re just here to lie, invent fake arguments to dunk on like a schizo, and embody convictions in front of the right people. Hope they saw it and thought you were very brave shilling for a government.
Edit: did not see this was an .ml com. That’s on me, I came to your turf. I’m not sorry for what I said but I know you all have your hustle and so I shouldn’t have said it here
This is the Hitler in the DNA of liberalism rearing his head in defense. You have nothing to back up the childish good guy/bad guy understanding of the world that’s all the empire equipped you with. So instead you put on both the peaked military cap and the lab coat and just start smugly declaring that people who disagree with your dumbass ideas are both enemy spies and insane. I brought analysis, you brought “You’re Russian.” Say I’m Chinese and gay for Putin next you fuckin loser.
Trying to understand how and why states do what they do and coming to different conclusions, surely is not simping for some of these leaders. You get that, right?
Not going to give you sources because you are a lost cause doing state shit for a state. People who know, they know. But you’re just here to lie, invent fake arguments to dunk on like a schizo, and embody convictions in front of the right people. Hope they saw it and thought you were very brave shilling for a government.
I saw it, I think your dissonance makes you cop out. People who know, they know — lol.
