The argument is even weaker if we go to before the Industrial Revolution. The Renaissance and scientific revolution happened on the shoulders of intellectual property borrowed/taken from global civilizational giants and on the backs of forced / coerced labor in colonial occupied territories. The luxury of having intellectuals in coffee shops pondering how society should be structured could have only happened by exploited labor in the colonies propping up their livelihoods and arguably through contact with pre-civilizational (indigeneous) societies in the Americas.
Two civilizational giants that come to mind are China and India. Chinese scholars, as you know, invented paper without which the printing press is not possible in the way that we conceive it today. India invented the numerical notation system that allows us to communicate large values and datasets in an efficient manner.
If not for the work of Brahmagupta, al-Khwarizmi and (most importantly for Europe) Fibonacci this notation system would have never been accepted as the number system we use today was considered to be sacrilege and mystical in Europe for centuries.
For paper, as with numerical notation, the practice was brought to Europe with advancement by Islamic civilizations. Cai Lun, Zuo Bo and Fan Ye were crucial in the development of paper which spread globally as we perceive it today.
The colonial narrative, for hundreds of years was that this progress happened in isolation and that was used to justify racism and genocide. I’m glad that in 2026 we are able to unravel such narratives at the seams.
I wasn’t commenting on the relative strength/weakness of the other commenter’s argument (because they were clearly shitposting and not asserting a thesis proposal); I was merely pointing out that they were talking about the end of the Middle Ages, which was centuries before the industrial revolution, so you bringing that up was kind of irrelevant.
and on the backs of forced / coerced labor in colonial occupied territories. The luxury of having intellectuals in coffee shops pondering how society should be structured could have only happened by exploited labor in the colonies propping up their livelihoods and arguably through contact with pre-civilizational (indigeneous) societies in the Americas.
I don’t think you understand the difference between the “Middle Ages,” “Renaissance,” and “Early Modern” eras…
slight correction:
I even misspoke to your advantage because the industrial revolution actually came after the Early Modern era, on the cusp of the Mid-Modern (and later the Late-Modern before finally Post-modern which we’ve been in since like the '50s…)
So the industrial revolution is actually further removed from the Renaissance and Middle Ages than I previously indicated.
Now, back to the topic at hand:
Chinese scholars, as you know, invented paper without which the printing press is not possible in the way that we conceive it today.
Okay? Paper had been in widespread use since late antiquity. It’s not what ended the Middle Ages; that was the printing press, which, as you know, was invented by Johannes Gutenberg, a German.
India invented the numerical notation system that allows us to communicate large values and datasets in an efficient manner.
[…]
For paper, as with numerical notation, the practice was brought to Europe with advancement by Islamic civilizations.
Nobody here is denying any of that, but it’s still not what ended the Middle Ages.
The colonial narrative, for hundreds of years was that this progress happened in isolation and that was used to justify racism and genocide.
The user you originally replied to literally included “inventing racism” in their roast of whiteness, so I’m not sure why you think this is a counterpoint to anything that’s been said…
Eurocentric history has erased major Asian milestones including Tang Dynasty woodblock printing, Bi Sheng’s ceramic movable type, and Korean metal movable type. Framing Gutenberg’s press as a uniquely European development completely ignores those innovations.
It’s a shitpost sub. Agreed. But Eurocentric historical bias / propaganda needs to be called out if we’re actually going to have an honest grasp of the world and the many civilizations that have contributed to its progress.
You’re looking at the conversation with tunnel vision in the context of a shitpost sub, and then lamenting that we haven’t had a comprehensive discussion of all the stages of progress that led up to the point of Gutenberg’s press?
Don’t show up to a baseball field and then lament that nobody’s playing soccer…
The argument is even weaker if we go to before the Industrial Revolution. The Renaissance and scientific revolution happened on the shoulders of intellectual property borrowed/taken from global civilizational giants and on the backs of forced / coerced labor in colonial occupied territories. The luxury of having intellectuals in coffee shops pondering how society should be structured could have only happened by exploited labor in the colonies propping up their livelihoods and arguably through contact with pre-civilizational (indigeneous) societies in the Americas.
Two civilizational giants that come to mind are China and India. Chinese scholars, as you know, invented paper without which the printing press is not possible in the way that we conceive it today. India invented the numerical notation system that allows us to communicate large values and datasets in an efficient manner.
If not for the work of Brahmagupta, al-Khwarizmi and (most importantly for Europe) Fibonacci this notation system would have never been accepted as the number system we use today was considered to be sacrilege and mystical in Europe for centuries.
For paper, as with numerical notation, the practice was brought to Europe with advancement by Islamic civilizations. Cai Lun, Zuo Bo and Fan Ye were crucial in the development of paper which spread globally as we perceive it today.
The colonial narrative, for hundreds of years was that this progress happened in isolation and that was used to justify racism and genocide. I’m glad that in 2026 we are able to unravel such narratives at the seams.
I wasn’t commenting on the relative strength/weakness of the other commenter’s argument (because they were clearly shitposting and not asserting a thesis proposal); I was merely pointing out that they were talking about the end of the Middle Ages, which was centuries before the industrial revolution, so you bringing that up was kind of irrelevant.
I don’t think you understand the difference between the “Middle Ages,” “Renaissance,” and “Early Modern” eras…
slight correction:
I even misspoke to your advantage because the industrial revolution actually came after the Early Modern era, on the cusp of the Mid-Modern (and later the Late-Modern before finally Post-modern which we’ve been in since like the '50s…)
So the industrial revolution is actually further removed from the Renaissance and Middle Ages than I previously indicated.
Now, back to the topic at hand:
Okay? Paper had been in widespread use since late antiquity. It’s not what ended the Middle Ages; that was the printing press, which, as you know, was invented by Johannes Gutenberg, a German.
Nobody here is denying any of that, but it’s still not what ended the Middle Ages.
The user you originally replied to literally included “inventing racism” in their roast of whiteness, so I’m not sure why you think this is a counterpoint to anything that’s been said…
Eurocentric history has erased major Asian milestones including Tang Dynasty woodblock printing, Bi Sheng’s ceramic movable type, and Korean metal movable type. Framing Gutenberg’s press as a uniquely European development completely ignores those innovations.
It’s a shitpost sub. Agreed. But Eurocentric historical bias / propaganda needs to be called out if we’re actually going to have an honest grasp of the world and the many civilizations that have contributed to its progress.
You’re looking at the conversation with tunnel vision in the context of a shitpost sub, and then lamenting that we haven’t had a comprehensive discussion of all the stages of progress that led up to the point of Gutenberg’s press?
Don’t show up to a baseball field and then lament that nobody’s playing soccer…