thanks for the reply! im actively looking for a way to compare it to simplex chat. i hope you can offer some advice.

here is a prev post about it. i think signal is a good app and works similarly to mine in many ways. but mine is distinct in that its provided as a PWA. the goal is specifically to create a secure chat app on a browser. simple provides all other offerings and perhaps came across feedback like i did that javascript is inherently insecure (to which, this app is my disagreement).

my app works similarly to how to derscribe simplex to work. in my app what you see as a “pod” is basically a chat room. the app doesnt have the group-chat functionality working as expected, but its a work in progress. the following is an attempt to explain how it works. it will work in a way that a room has an id to which users can send messages p2p. this is how it works for regular chat. it works with a slight different that the messages are stored on a blockchain structure. it isnt related to cryptocurrencies or anything. just blockchain as a dastructure. this becomes useful for group chat because it could allow for offlike messaging by something like user A, B and C have a group chat. C goes offline while A and B continue to chat. then A goes offline and C comes online to talk to B. when C connects to B for the second time, the messages from A will be shared and resolved via the blockchain functionality. i make an attempt to explain the benefit of the blockchain structure here. it isnt something i can advocate as an approach. its more something i was trying out and it seems to work better than i thought.

id like to hear more about your approach to distributed moderation. i was trying to investigate something like this and couldnt settle on an approach that would be useful. it would be great to hear your ideas if you want to share.

thanks for the info.

threat agents

in a p2p system the key components seem to be things like the network, peer, device, os, browser. all those things can be compromised either on yourside or on the peer’s side. its critically important for security that these components are secured to a reasonable degree. threat agents could mean things like device manufacturer, ISP or even someone looking over your shoulder taking notes. not sure how exhaustively to describe threat agents here but these are the components that make up the system and have understandable nuances to thier vulnerabilities.

HTTPS and an honest server

this is true but it critically depends on your definition of these. there are many decentralised chat apps out there like matrix. unlike matrix, a selfhosted solution on my app is something that is easier to setup that others because its basically a website on a url. this might lead to less technical people using my app with ease. these are the users that may not be able to distinguish on these security relevent information.

verify that the JavaScript they’re executing is the correct JavaScript

the app is a offline-first PWA. its practically works offline. im sure its possible to make it so that fetching new statics can be done explicitly. the app otherwise is already able to do things like startup while offline from the cache (sometime it takes a couple refreshes (a bug for another time)). i prefer for it to take the latest javascript because especially at this early stage, it something im actively working on and fixing. i can imagine if the project isnt abandoned, it would make sense to have certain security assessed version to use.

compel you to serve malicious JavaScript to specific users

i think there isnt a way to implement something like this in this app. firstly im taking a hard stance on external javascript. that isnt to say my due-diligence is perfect… thats to be indentified from it being open source. the app doesnt have anything like tra traditional registration system. data is stored locally in browser storage and user ID’s are cryptographically random. if there is concern about seving a different script to certain regions by IP, here is a prev post on the matter. ultimately users have to be responsible with how they use the app. “do not connect to people you dont trust” is the general advice.

thanks!

it’s hard for an app like this to surpass the value that popular apps like signal and WhatsApp

i agree. i dont think my app can compete with these mainstream apps because there are limitations in what a webapp can do. at this stage in the project, the apps general instability is not good for user experience. i am conceding that my app is not as nice-to-use like many other apps. however, i dont think these other offering can be as secure as mine.

i often get touted things like the Signal protocol is amazing and great, etc. id like to compare that opinion to the observation in how my todo app demo works. (the work is all experimental work-in-progress and far from finished)

https://github.com/positive-intentions/p2p/blob/staging/src/stories/TodoDemo.stories.js

at around line 147 you have something like an API with endpoints between peers. the demo shows a simple functionality for a decentralized todo. this should already be reasonable secure. then consider in the main app. i simply add a few extra endpoints for exchanging keys diffie-helman style. which at this point is relatively trivial to implement. some of the concerns ive heard about doing this with the javascript and webrtc, is leaked IP addresses. a prev post on the matter and i think its better to use the app with a trusted VPN. (note: this app is not intended for anonymous chat this is just to mask the IP address. strangers cannot connect with ungussable ID’s. IDs are also disposable if needed).

your right about it being my big caveat. i noticed as my app got more complicated, i got further away from being able to describe it as secure/private/encrypted and this seems to be related to the complexity to understand. i would like to make the time to create something like the todo list demo, but a bare minimum chat app. it wont compete with things like whatsapp, signal or simplex, but by virtue of its simplicity it surely must qualify to be something like “the most secure chat app in the world”.

i find that while i can create what i think is a secure app, education is an important factor. by that i mean for it to be secure, it is nessesary for it to be open source. perhaps it can only be considered secure if you fork it instead of using my hosted version?

as for the target audience, im currently limiting my communication of the app on things like reddit specifically on relevent subreddits for things like crytpgraphy. im faily new to lemmy. the lemmy community seems to give “better” advice.

I’m sure various factors affect any projects maturity.

I work on the project because I have a curiosity and the ability to try. Compared to other project, a webapp is pretty easy to get started on as a developer.

Thanks. I’ve come across tox before. It’s a good implementation. The aim of my project is not to compete, but more to demonstrate a different approach to P2P technology.

A key detail in mine is that it’s made to work in a typical web browser. While things like chat functionality can be demonstrated in our app. The app is capable to do things like shared xr spaces and shared filesystems… Unfortunately those features are still in need of refinement before they become appealing to users, but it works for a proof-of-concept.

perhaps.

it started of very vanillajs, but i found that users didnt like the appearance. so i added a faily basic implementation of material ui.

existing frameworks were not compatible with the look, feel and funtionality i was after. i still havent achieved it, but im happy with the progress.

Sorry. It’s quite buggy.

• Its best to start off by clearing all site data from the browser settings.
• Do not have multiple tabs of the app on the same device.
• It doesnt hurt to refresh to page.

What you’re describing might be related to there being 2 tabs of the app running. This results in both reacting to the new-connection-event, but ultimately resulting in a data conflict.

Plugins shouldn’t be an issue. For stronger security, i have CSP headers to try to prevent browser plugins reading data.

If nothing works then the egg is squarely on my face and my buggy app is too buggy.

https://github.com/positive-intentions/chat

It uses webrtc for P2P connections.

Thanks. It’s been mentioned before and I’d like to take a look at it when I can make the time.

The project it’s in its early stages. There isn’t anything as formal as a protocol yet. That is also why there isn’t good documentation about it… The best I have for your question is:

https://positive-intentions.com/docs/research/authentication

Users can selfhost the frontend and backend independently. When creating a profile, you can set it to use your own peerjs-server (set preferences)

The frontend is only run as client-side JavaScript. There isn’t a step to “set up clients”.

Thanks. I want to also investigate if YJS could also fit into the app.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cryptography/comments/1bs7slv/help_me_understand_postquantum_cryptography/

Sorry to redirect to Reddit. I’m new to Lemmy.

Tldr; there are several approaches to this issue. In the case of webapps, relying on the offering from the browser should be enough.

I’m also investigating if wasm could also be a way to introduce real-world-entropy to key generation (because I noticed it isn’t possible to seed the browser key generation)

There is a lot to be fixed throughout but file transfer and video calls should be working if you try out the live app.

The app is a active work in progress. I try to make this clear in my post. Any “protocol” being used, is subject to change as I make improvements.

You raise some good points about rotating keys and forward secrecy. These are things I will be including, but the app is far from finished.

Maybe this helps a bit (I know it’s not what you want, but it’s the best I got at the moment without diving into the code): https://positive-intentions.com/docs/research/authentication/

It’s similar to matrix in many ways. The key difference is with mine it’s is purely browser based. Unlike traditional solutions like matrix where you have a (self)hosted server, mine does not require things like registration or installation.

I’m using peerjs-server. I’m also investigating other ways to achieve peer discovery which itself could be quite a discussion.

An understandable view. Not sure what you mean by lengthy, but I can confirm my app is not well documented. If the MDN docs count, its a fairly thin wrapper around the functionality provided by the browser of your choice.

https://github.com/positive-intentions/cryptography/blob/staging/src/stories/components/Cryptography.tsx

I’m using webpack 5 module federation to import that file at runtime. Perhaps over-engineered, but it’s so I can keep the crypto functionality maintained separately. That repo is in need of more attention for things like unit tests, but the crypto implementation there is pretty basic.