It should be a conspiracy of like-minded individuals that exists parasitically within Starfleet, not an official (or an unofficial official agency).
In fairness, Sloan said they were a branch of Starfleet Intelligence with an official designation in his very first appearance on DS9, and nothing that came after that really contradicted him (other than his obvious lies in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”).
Whatever liberties have been taken since then, that wasn’t one of them.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy. Given the methods used to control Bashir, they seemed to clearly be working not just to hide their operational details, but their existence from the legitimate chain of command.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy.
I think a lot of people did, but the episode doesn’t really make the case that it’s a lie - in fact, Sloan is protected at the highest levels of Starfleet Command, which supports the idea that Sloan was being completely truthful when he was trying to recruit Bashir. It’s a legitimate reading of the episode, at any rate.
Is he protected, or was he using Starfleet personnel for his own ends? I don’t recall that it ever explicitly shows them officially working together. With Inter Arnim Selim Legis, the Admiral is working with Sloan, not for him or commanding him. A relationship of convenience, not an official one. Similar to when they’re looking for the cure for Odo, it’s not specific people working directly for Section 31, just people who are either working with them out of convenience… or being manipulated similar to Bashir and the Admiral whose name I can’t remember from the aforementioned episode.
That doesn’t speak to an official relationship, just the manipulative one of a parasitic organism pretending to be a mutualistic one.
BASHIR: Captain, is there any word from Starfleet about Sloan or Section 31?
SISKO: There’s no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that’s a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn’t acknowledge its existence, but they don’t deny it either. They simply said they’d look into it and get back to me.
BASHIR: When?
SISKO: They didn’t say.
KIRA: That sounds like a cover up to me.
BASHIR: I can’t believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
When the top brass of Starfleet are covering your ass, you’re an official agent, whether you’re “on the books” or not.
I mean, if you want to turn a grey issue into something completely black and white, sure.
If you want to assume that because you got some dirt on your shoes, you should just throw them out. Even if you just had to step out of the way of a runaway car.
We literally know nothing about the relationship between Section 31 and Starfleet from that exchange other than that one is letting the other get away with shit. That absolutely speaks to a level of corruption and probably desperation (based on everything else going on in the quadrant at the time), but it doesn’t speak to a level of involvement of one with the other.
It’s the same as Paradise Lost… does one admiral and their staff attempting a literal coup. Does that mean Starfleet as a whole is condoning that coup? Should we just throw the whole thing out because of that incident?
Sure, if you think any measure of corruption means that it’s not worth supporting something anymore.
All you’re doing is making a blanket statement about complex situations with limited information.
We have no idea what the exact situation is, that’s kind of the whole point of the Section 31 storyline in DS9. Making any kind of concrete conclusion from it requires significant leaps in logic.
that’s kind of the whole point of the Section 31 storyline in DS9.
Again, no. That’s not the story they’re telling, and there’s no episode that tries to make that point. It’s a massive leap of logic to try to make that case.
It could be, but it’s brought us to the point where Section 31 has narratively usurped the role of Starfleet Intelligence in its entirety and has kind of lost the point. Reading S31 as a conspiracy is the smarter play for people in charge of Trek, and I am disappointed that they’ve gone completely the other way. Like I mentioned, the S31 in ENT was the only expansion I liked because it took the conspiracy angle.
In fairness, Sloan said they were a branch of Starfleet Intelligence with an official designation in his very first appearance on DS9, and nothing that came after that really contradicted him (other than his obvious lies in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”).
Whatever liberties have been taken since then, that wasn’t one of them.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy. Given the methods used to control Bashir, they seemed to clearly be working not just to hide their operational details, but their existence from the legitimate chain of command.
I think a lot of people did, but the episode doesn’t really make the case that it’s a lie - in fact, Sloan is protected at the highest levels of Starfleet Command, which supports the idea that Sloan was being completely truthful when he was trying to recruit Bashir. It’s a legitimate reading of the episode, at any rate.
Is he protected, or was he using Starfleet personnel for his own ends? I don’t recall that it ever explicitly shows them officially working together. With Inter Arnim Selim Legis, the Admiral is working with Sloan, not for him or commanding him. A relationship of convenience, not an official one. Similar to when they’re looking for the cure for Odo, it’s not specific people working directly for Section 31, just people who are either working with them out of convenience… or being manipulated similar to Bashir and the Admiral whose name I can’t remember from the aforementioned episode.
That doesn’t speak to an official relationship, just the manipulative one of a parasitic organism pretending to be a mutualistic one.
When the top brass of Starfleet are covering your ass, you’re an official agent, whether you’re “on the books” or not.
I mean, if you want to turn a grey issue into something completely black and white, sure.
If you want to assume that because you got some dirt on your shoes, you should just throw them out. Even if you just had to step out of the way of a runaway car.
We literally know nothing about the relationship between Section 31 and Starfleet from that exchange other than that one is letting the other get away with shit. That absolutely speaks to a level of corruption and probably desperation (based on everything else going on in the quadrant at the time), but it doesn’t speak to a level of involvement of one with the other.
It’s the same as Paradise Lost… does one admiral and their staff attempting a literal coup. Does that mean Starfleet as a whole is condoning that coup? Should we just throw the whole thing out because of that incident?
Sure, if you think any measure of corruption means that it’s not worth supporting something anymore.
All I’m doing is accurately describing the way the organization was depicted on DS9.
All you’re doing is making a blanket statement about complex situations with limited information.
We have no idea what the exact situation is, that’s kind of the whole point of the Section 31 storyline in DS9. Making any kind of concrete conclusion from it requires significant leaps in logic.
Again, no. That’s not the story they’re telling, and there’s no episode that tries to make that point. It’s a massive leap of logic to try to make that case.
It could be, but it’s brought us to the point where Section 31 has narratively usurped the role of Starfleet Intelligence in its entirety and has kind of lost the point. Reading S31 as a conspiracy is the smarter play for people in charge of Trek, and I am disappointed that they’ve gone completely the other way. Like I mentioned, the S31 in ENT was the only expansion I liked because it took the conspiracy angle.