cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/341887
So yeah water is wet. reddit doesnt care and its great lemmy exists.
I hope that post gets traction. People should be sharing it all over to prove Reddit is being entirely disingenuous. They don’t care about third party apps or accessibility, they immediately made promises they have no ability to keep before their self imposed deadline.
I agree this really seems like it should be dead center in the conversation. It clearly demonstrates just how massively reddit is messing up. Right before leaving last week I saw tons of people upset and disgusted when they realized these repercussions. I don’t know if that sentiment has continued over there.
Unfortunately there are tons of people believing that Reddit has already done the work by exempting certain accessibility apps from the changes. So they think there’s nothing to worry about.
I have zero problems letting r/Blind lead the charge. They did a great job highlighting the failure of exec leadership.
At the end of the day, what Reddit can sell to advertisers are communities of like-minded people who might be willing to buy stuff.
Drive out the community, and what can Reddit sell? Nothing. They should be scrambling to repair the damage done, to keep advertising eyeballs in their ecosystem. r/Blind response shows that they have no clue and no intent to retain users.
Full text of the post on reddit (part one, 5000 character limit), so you don’t have to wander around looking for it or give reddit the traffic:
Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.
Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0
explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer
, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.snip, see part two
Part two:
During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer
explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.
In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.
In a schadenfreude kind of way, it’s interesting to watch it begin to burn down.
Fuck u/Spez. We’ll take great satisfaction watching the next chapter of your self destruction while you try to “cash out”.
I remember when Digg collapsed and the Great Exodus happened. It’s incredible to see history repeat itself.
… but this time with SO MANY opportunities to say sorry and reverse course. This one is … kinda crazy to watch.
They burned through all the VC money before ever really putting that much thought into how to become profitable. There was reddit premium which showed they didn’t understand the needs and wants of their users (or didn’t care enough to research them) and there was NFTs which showed… well the same.
Now they are about out of VC money so they want to IPO to get the investor money, and they see this as their absolute last-ditch effort. To them, if this fails, there is no IPO and reddit is dead.
Far too little too late. I would not want to be in Fuckspez’s shoes as he’s looking for his next CEO gig. It’s like watching the ADHD kid’s internal struggle to do his paper on time, and but he’s panicking with his pants around his waist as the clock strikes an hour to deadline.
You know, I understand all that. And I understand that the API pricing was never about making 3PA pay, but killing them.
You know what I don’t understand? Why, before undertaking this plan why reddit wouldn’t identify the biggest friction points (mod tools, accessibility, screen real estate efficiency) and then implement changes to pre-emptively. It would cut the legs out of so many complaints. “Oh 3PA gives you ‘x’ tool- we just added it to the official app!” is much more soothing than the vague promise to add it at some undefined point in the future. Even being cynical, normal quality of life changes for normal users could be made during this time period, and then quietly rolled back after the IPO. Thinking about it like a callus business person, this seems like the play to make.
There is a universe possible where reddit gracefully kills 3PA, rolls out enough of their own features to look competent, and gets a lot of good press out of it which would help IPO buzz. They have 2000 employees, what are they all doing?
I’m pretty sure it’s all panic decision making at this point. They saw machine learning companies slurping up user conversations then panicked. Then they saw dollar signs selling that data to those companies. Problem is that ship has already sailed.
They saw third party apps as leeches that don’t contribute anything. Never mind how those apps and third party mod tools are essential to moderating a sub. And power users generate a lot of content using those same apps.
I also think they’re feeling the squeeze right now. Easy money dried up with rising interest rates. The tech and advertising sectors took a hit. Reddit laid off 5% of their workforce and slowed hiring.
spez doesn’t care about Reddit the platform. He just wants to sell it to Wall Street and get his money. It doesn’t matter if it’s a flaming garbage truck as long as he gets the IPO through. So it’s full speed ahead with no looking back.
spez doesn’t care about Reddit the platform. He just wants to sell it to Wall Street and get his money.
Yeah, I get all that. I just figured making it look good during the IPO, even if it crumbled long term was part of the goal. I figured there would have been a bit of meeting room wargaming going on before they set the plans into motion, even if it was on a crunched timeline, how hard could it have been to get their developers to copy even some of the features of 3PA before announcing the changes. They already have developers on staff, I don’t understand what they are being paid for if not to develop. Again, I understand features wanted by users and features wanted for monetization won’t always be the same, but even just adding stuff like the blind accessibility features before the community browbeat them seems like it would have been an obvious part of a gameplan.
They’re developing for ads. I’ll quote myself from the previous week.
Reddit is only going to get worst over the next year. I came across this article a couple days ago while searching for early news coverage of the (then planned) blackout:
Reddit launches new ad products to boost conversions (archive.ph mirror)
Reddit has launched Contextual Keyword Targeting and Product Ads, to help advertisers reach new and valuable audiences.
The article reads like an ad, but what I got out of it was Reddit is going to have more tracking and intrusive advertising. Not a good experience.
I lost the link, but someone looked at their job listings a few days ago. They are looking to hire people in machine learning w.r.t advertising.
And the community has been browbeating them for 8 years for better mod tools. r/AskHistorians had a long post (mirror) about Reddit’s empty promises. Reddit dropping the ball on accessibility features is the norm given their history.
I wasn’t on Digg so I didn’t experience that break down. How does it compare? Based purely on user base numbers alone it seems like a difficult comparison.
Digg and Reddit were rivals of sorts, constantly mocking each other, occasionally brigading and competing for being the better site. Then Digg administration changed the design of the site and gave way more power to corporations and advertisers, and then everyone just packed up and went to Reddit, where they were welcomed and accepted.
User numbers were obviously much smaller, because the internet was less than half the size of what it is today (2 billion users in 2010 vs. 5 billion today).
Digg was the far larger and superior site until they fucked it up. I greatly preferred Digg’s modern UI compared to Reddit’s shitbox (then and now) appearance.
It’s still early days with the rexodus. This is comparable to when the HD-DVD key came out and Digg admins were swinging the banhammer wildly. That’s when I created my reddit account, as I’m sure did many others. It wasn’t until a couple of years after that that Digg decided to play around with how posts were weighted, essentially handing over total content control to power users. That’s when I really switched over, and it was still another year or so before Digg went full scorpion and redesigned the site, including eliminating comments entirely.
It’s so clear that reddit doesn’t have a freakin’ clue about accessibility. Not a single person on their 2000 employee staff knows anything. Seems like accessibility is just a distraction from NFTs for them.
Considering apollo is the app for iOS accessibility, implementing the actual provided iOS apis to support users with needs, you are absolutely correct.
If they cared about accessibility, apollo would not be having this problem
I’m guessing that most of them know exactly what they’re doing, they just hope to sail through since a large portion of Reddit users are using the official New site and the official app. Also, their goal is specifically to get rid of third party apps.
Judging by the logic that ‘TPA users a very small fraction of our users and therefore they don’t matter to us’ I really don’t see why accessibility users wouldn’t fall into that same camp. They just have to be more circumspect about it for PR reasons.
This definitely where we need something like a digital ADA law. You grow big enough and you have to support disabled users of your website.
Pretty sure this is already a thing, or at least there’s precedent for companies being sued for inaccessible websites. I seem to remember a successful case involving Domino’s Pizza a few years ago, and I’ve heard elsewhere that retailers have been sued before. I’m not too familiar with US law though, so I could be wrong.
Fuck u/spez…
Reddit is intentionally crashing. They will not actually finish moderator utilities until it is far too late.
You know someone is a huge asshole when they give blind people a hard time.
Rip
Is there any traction for an ADA lawsuit here? Any lawyers care to comment?
I saw someone comment earlier that the ADA doesn’t apply to websites. I have no idea about the actual legalities, but it seems like it would kind of have to be true. I mean, when someone creates the first version of a website as a part-time hobby, they very probably aren’t aiming for anything other than “get it working”. They aren’t spending time catering to blind users.
Hell, most commercial publications don’t even bother to put their graphs and such in colorblind-friendly colors, which seems like it’d be vastly lower-effort.
it does apply to websites but it depends on some things. For example if you build a SASS application and provide it to a company. A big vector for this type of legal issue for a while was POS systems there was a big lawsuit a while back where all the major retailers were sued so that’s mostly been addressed. If its required as part of a job being performed by someone with a disability aka not WCAG 2.0 compliant you could get in sued. If you do any kind of work that is tangentially connected to US federal funds or serve a government RFP(federal and most states) you will have to be ADA compliant.
💀
Ooh classic corpo “pretending to care” strategy, we‘ll see how it works out.
Reddit just doesn’t care at all. It is a shame.
