I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don’t hate me.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I’d love some help with all of this.
I live in a house with three queer/poly people. Around here, people sometimes introduce themselves or others with a note about their pronouns. But if someone doesn’t, it’s okay and either people will pick up the right ones from context, or they will guess and maybe be gently corrected.
“DiD yOu JuSt AsSuMe My GeNdEr??” is not real; it’s an Internet troll parody.
That’s a relief.
So just go on about my merry way and if someone corrects me respect their choices ?
Yeah. Like if you thought someone’s name was Joe but it was actually Jeff and they tell you that, it’s not a big deal. Just one of those things that sometimes happens if you’re meeting new people.
Oh no, if I think someone’s name is Joe and it turns out being Jeff, I feel atrocious.
Sure, but you probably have the sense to focus that into remembering their name correctly next time. You wouldn’t go telling them that Jeff is a molester name because Epstein and that therefore they should pretend to be named Joe.
Exactly this. It’s just a minor social correction. Like if you meet Pamela and a few sentences later you call her Pam. She corrects you to ‘Pamela’ because she doesn’t like the nickname. No big deal, you call her Pamela and move on. It’s like that.
From what I’ve seen gender diverse people generally seem to understand the difference between someone’s who’s just made a mistake and someone who refuses to use the correct pronoun despite being corrected numerous times.
That last bit is the important thing. If someone tells you pronouns, use them. If someone tells you they prefer “they/them” and you keep using he or she on purpose, you are disrespecting them.
We all make mistakes sometimes and most people I’ve met who use alternative pronouns that may conflict with their socially expected appearance don’t mind correcting someone a few times or will brush it off a few times, but more than that, especially if you see and interact with this person regularly, you become an asshole.
I try really hard to be respectful of someones pronoun choice but I will readily admit I find ‘they/them’ requires quite active concentration and thought not to refer to someone as she / he.
Writing interview notes have actually helped a lot for me to use they/them since we have to be gender neutral in our notes. Now it’s not so hard to switch into using it when needed.
Yep exactly! I’m trans and can confirm it’s not a huge deal. It’s actually usually fine to assume someone’s gender.
I think the people who end up getting upset are the ones who are isolated from the LGBT community in real life.
Yup, that’s about it. A good tactic if you’re not sure about someone’s gender is to lead with your own: “hi, I’m shapis, he/him”. They’ll invariably follow suit most of the time. If they don’t and you get it wrong, well, you tried and were polite about it.
I know I’m out of touch on this, but I just can’t imagine someone introducing themselves in this way. Particularly if you’re a cis male and your pronouns are he/him. I guess it depends on context.
Yeah, it’s definitely still something new. It’s not something I would typically do in 99% of face to face encounters. In work presentations in front of a large audience we typically just fill it in on the introduction card at the start.
It’s only a tactic for the edge case where someone presents ambiguously, in which case they’re probably perfectly used to it as a way to politely ask. And yeah, it’s a little awkward, but no more so that any other “polite chat with a new person” banter.
You can usually tell what pronouns to use via normal social awareness, and when in doubt, sharing yours is a polite way to prompt others to share theirs.
Cis allies usually put pronouns in their bios to show support and normalize the act itself of specifying then online. IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.
Just whenever you meet someone and they tell you to talk to them in a specific way, just do it and respect their pronouns. Its easy. Most people dont care if you get it wrong the first times as long as you acknowledge your mistake and correct yourself, your brain will get used to it and you will not make the mistake later. That’s the different between someone who is learning and an idiot purposefully misgendering someone.
BTW if you arent sure about someone elses pronouns, just ask them. Easy.
One thing I try to do as clueless old man is when I am writing a policy doc or instructions at work, I just stick with they/them.
Instructions on how to merge a branch in Git do not need gender specific pronouns.
Yeah. That is just better.
I think this is the most basic change to make that simplifies everything. Particularly online, until you described yourself as an ‘old man’ I had no idea of your gender. Traditional language would mean even without this information I’d still refer to you with he/him pronouns, or broader terms like ‘this guy’ etc, but to be more welcoming to everyone, we should be starting out using generic they/them for everyone.
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What do you mean by ‘never neutral’?
Cool thanks. I just put mine up in my bio. Hopefully in the right spot.
Your first sentence is a really good point. Many cis-gendered people thing it’s pointless to add their pronouns in their email/bio, but it helps to not out those who are trans. If everyone/most people state their pronouns then it makes it harder to unnecessarily identify those who are trans.
People who actually care about pronouns will tell you theirs.
To add to this, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who gives a shit about pronouns. I swear the whole thing is just an online phenomenon used to get people to fight over nonsense.
Most people don’t have to care about pronouns. For a small subset of people the gender of their brain does not match the gender they appear as. Passing as your preferred gender can take years and is mostly down to genetics. So non-passing trans people will ask others to use their pronouns so they can socially transition before they pass. And that isn’t even mentioning non-binary people. The reason cis people specify their pronouns is to normalize it for trans people who don’t have a choice.
In my university Ive been asked what my pronouns were multiple time by all sorts of people
Idk how it is where you live but in french univerities it is definetly real life
Honestly, I think that if I would say “my pronouns are he/him”, people would think that’s a weird thing to say and would think something like “oh, it’s one of those woke people”.
Where I live, the people that tell you about their pronouns are a minority, and they are usually people that need to tell you their pronouns to avoid confusion, or people that are particularly active in the “woke” community.
For 99% of the people you meet, it’s fair to assume pronouns because it’s obvious. And if your assumption was wrong, they can just tell you. No need to get butthurt over it.
Saying “my pronouns are…” without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion. Like, what are people going to say 5 years from now? “My name is …, my pronouns are …, my ethnicity is …, I live in … and my favorite color is …”?
What a dumb way to start a conversation. You know, the whole point of a conversation is that you ask and answer questions, or share things you like to share. We don’t need to share everything in the introduction sentence, including pronouns. It’s just pointless most of the time.
To be clear: if anyone wants to tell me their pronouns right away, all good, I won’t dislike you for it. Just don’t expect the same from me, just assume my pronouns and I’ll be happy to correct you on the off chance that you’re wrong.
No one’s expecting that of you dude. The “woke people” aren’t out to get you because you don’t introduce yourself with your pronouns, nor are they pushing for that ridiculous future hypothetical you set up. They’re just looking to help others get by. No need to be so touchy about it.
I think I know what he means. It’s perfectly acceptable to just use him or her for 99.999% of people, and if you just so happen to meet one of the 0.001% of people that goes out of their way to draw attention to themselves by being offended, they’re probably not worth wasting oxygen on lol
Saying “my pronouns are…” without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion.
What a dumb way to start a conversation.
Between those statements and so much concern about seeming “woke”, I don’t think they’re only worried about the “0.001%” here.
Yeah true, but if you start a conversation with “my pronouns are…”, the vast majority of people will assume you’re incredibly self-centred, let’s be honest here. Not a great way to start a conversation
So we’ve gone from “0.001% get offended about pronouns” to “It’s self centered (ie ‘wrong’) to introduce yourself with pronouns.” Maybe just let people engage with the world in the way that best suits them? Sometimes that includes prefacing an introduction with pronouns to head off any mistakes or discomfort. These people are just trying to get by. Try not to be so judgemental.
While I personally wouldn’t go as far as to call people self-centered, I do think Mr Blott has a point, a lot of people may think they are self-centered for immediately declaring their pronouns (or anything else other than your name for that matter).
Anyway, that wasn’t what I was trying to say. All I wanted to say is that I don’t think that announcing your pronouns is something that will be or should be normalized, since it’s pointless for the vast majority of people. I do understand why some people would prefer to do this anyway to avoid the awkward situations like “ahem, actually it’s… euuh… he, not she”, and I don’t have a problem with that.
and I don’t have a problem with that.
You both very clearly do. Stuff like calling things pointless and ridiculous, advocating for the “vast majority” or “99.999%” of people? That only serves to isolate and "other"ize. It’s hurtful and dismissive of real people. Following it up with “but people can do what they want” doesn’t erase what you say. Might as well start it off with “No offense, but…”
If you are truly trying to be kind and accepting here, maybe take some time to self reflect on how you view and talk about these things and what’s behind that.
I apologize if my comment sounds a bit whiny or if I sounded a bit touchy. I was just a bit annoyed with the amount of comments that seem to suggest telling people what your pronouns is is a common thing in real life, while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
But I suppose I could have phrased my comment a bit less aggressively and I could have made my point clear with less rambling.
while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it’s obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
Just because you have little knowing experience with people that don’t match what you consider “normal” doesn’t mean it’s near non-existant. You seem to be under the impression that people are going out of their way to address a non-issue when it very much affects real people.
You don’t need to do it yourself, but dismissing it, calling it stupid or ridiculous, or just generally insinuating that it’s something only weird people do is not helpful or kind. Quite the opposite, really.
The reality is that not everyone can go out of their way to adapt to every minority group in existence. I get that it affects people, but that’s just life. Social norms are based on the most common needs and interests of society, not on those of each minority group combined.
As another example, consider neurodivergent people (ASD, AD(H)D, etc.). Such people (including myself) may struggle when trying to live in a world where most people are “normal” (e.g. poor social skills, anxiety, sensitivity to noises, etc.). It would be nice if everyone could adapt to the needs of all others, but it’s unrealistic in practice due to how many different people with different needs there are in this world.
I don’t go to people and expect them to adapt to my needs either, because I’m not entitled to their effort to adapt. Unless they are close friends, and they get to know me better, then maybe they will choose to avoid doing things that make me uncomfortable.
My point is: stop trying to revolutionize the world and introduce new social norms based on the needs of very tiny groups, you’ll only annoy people.
Again, no one is demanding you do this. We’re just taking in circles at this point, so I’ll just leave it at that, with another suggestion to self reflect if you are earnest about being accepting of others.
no one is demanding you
In that case my previous comment is irrelevant and off-topic. It was a misinterpretation of your comment on my end.
In my original comment I did say that I don’t have a problem with people that do tell me their pronouns, even if I do think that’s a bit stupid and weird (we will have to agree to disagree on this one I’m afraid). This does not mean I’m not accepting of others, I only mean that I think this specific kind of social interaction feels weird to me.
I apologize if my opinion of this comes over as unkind or unhelpful. In fact I might even agree that it is unhelpful and unkind, but I much rather share an unhelpful opinion than a dishonest one (perhaps it is better for me to stay quiet in this case). I’m sure many people share my opinion or have a similar one. You also can’t expect people to immediately change their opinion or be dishonest about it based on the needs of a minority group.
I also apologize if my initial comment sounded too aggressive and/or hateful. Maybe I should have chosen a more polite way to share this opinion?
I agree that it’s weird, but I think sharing pronouns in an introduction is different from sharing ethnicity, place of living, and favorite color.
The latter 3 does not matter in a conversation, but the pronouns are always part of conversations: when you’re speaking about Greg, you don’t repeatedly say their name (“yeah, Greg has came into office half an hour ago, and Greg has been to the fridge, and Greg has prepared Greg’s desktop, Greg is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find Greg in the game room”) because that’s weird, you instead refer to it in a shorter form after the first time: with pronouns (“yeah, Greg has came into office an hour ago, and he has been to the fridge, and he has prepared his desktop, he is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find him in the game room”)So my point is that it shouldn’t hurt to also include your pronouns, when it’s not obvious, because they will be used, and it will probably bother you. And we all (should) know that unhappy people won’t be efficient, not just in work but neither in life. Are you a he? You don’t want to be called a she either, right?
Fair point, it doesn’t hurt to include it. But my point is that in most cases it’s irrelevant and it isn’t something everyone has to start doing.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don’t need to tell me what their pronouns are, because I guess simply guess them with high certainty based on how they look. You might disagree with this if you feel like everyone should be able to choose their own pronouns (which is fine by me), but in reality most people don’t want to tell you their pronouns, they want you to look at them and just know.
But my point is that in most cases it’s irrelevant and it isn’t something everyone has to start doing.
I did not yet see this happening IRL, but I can see that just exclaiming it is not appropriate. Though maybe they honestly just don’t know what better way is there to introduce themselves, and to be clear, I don’t know either.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don’t need to tell me what their pronouns are, because
Because you won’t have to do anything with them. They don’t tell their name either, because why would they do that, when just passing by on the street?
However at introductions there is a place for the pronouns, however weird it sounds today. I mean, introduction is about letting others know you and your things that you find relatively important.but in reality most people don’t want to tell you their pronouns,
Never said anyone would have to. I would never do that either, because is it obvious. Same for most people, because it is obvious. This is an optional thing, even for non-binary people: only those have to tell it who want to do so.
I’ve been to conferences where the name tag has a place for pronouns but most people don’t fill them out. 99% of the time it’s safe to assume the pronouns you believe are correct, are correct. If you get told otherwise use the preferred pronouns in the future. If someone freaks out over it after one mistake that’s their problem.
You can also get around pronouns by just using names. I find i rarely need to use pronouns.
Just one thing to add, people freaking out is extremely uncommon. I haven’t even heard about a case IRL, even for trans people it isn’t something that tends to happen.
Don’t be afraid to just guess when you are unsure, you can always ask though and at least for younger generations it isn’t seen as weird or unpolite to do so
The only place it happens is in conservatives’ minds and when people make the “mistake” on purpose.
A.K.A “the Jordan Peterson experience”
And as a bonus linguistic fun fact:
Everyone is they/them until you find out otherwise
Or at least that’s how I was taught English
“I went to see a doctor about my headaches today.”
“Oh good, what did X say?”
Anyone that doesn’t use ‘they’ here either has more information than I provided or is a bit sexist.
Mostly it’s chill - don’t worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It’s reasonably easy to avoid.
You likely don’t need to tell anyone IRL. You’re a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody’s likely to even ask. Same applies if it’s obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they’re introduced to you. In that case it’s “they” - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone’s introduced as “Bob” he’s probably fine with “he” etc.
If you’re worried about getting it wrong, I’d just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
IRL that’s unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.
Hello! Resident Genderfluid person here. Usually you can just ask their name and that works to get them to give you the greeting they like. They look like a James, but give you the name Samantha? Probably safe to use she/her unless doing so has them ask you to use something else. IRL, at least.
Online? It’s usually in a bio or they will tell you if it is functionally relevant. The only people I (anecdotally) have seen devolve into scree when accidentally misgendered were people trying to start something or acting for the sake of poisoning the well.
As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places. Look up gay/trans panic laws. It’s dangerous to be queer in America with Conservatives having so much sway right now.
I would also assume that if someone who looks like a James introduces themselves as Samantha, it’s absolutely fine to ask for the correct pronouns, or ask them to confirm it’s female pronouns. Samantha would probably actually appreciate it.
I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?
Probably. Straight is the wrong word here - that refers to your sexuality, not your gender identity. A straight male is into women. But a straight male could also have pronouns other than he/him. Usually, a cisgender male uses he/him pronouns, but not always. Cisgender is a word that means that your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth - e.g. not transgender
Is that how I should tell people?
Yes, the best way to do it is part of your introductions, like, “Hi, I’m Blake, my pronouns are he him”. Usually people don’t “say” the slash, it’s just a space, but you can say it if you want.
Do you actually tell them as you meet them ?
It’s up to you. If I am meeting someone 1:1 for the first time, I probably wouldn’t unless they did first. I always do it when I’m introducing myself to a group.
Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
The only social cue is simply, “what are your pronouns?”. Ideally, we (cisgender folk) should be trying to make it easier for transgender/non-binary people by sharing our pronouns, even if they would be obvious to most people - I’m a hairy, 6’4” bear, most people can tell I identify as male, but if I say my pronouns are he/him or any/all pronouns (I don’t mind which pronouns people use for me) it makes it less awkward for trans people or gender non-conforming (GNC) folk to do so.
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
It’s up to you, nobody will expect it from you - it’s personal information after all. If you’re comfortable sharing it, then you can put it anywhere you like, including on your profile, or you can share at the point it becomes relevant.
And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out?
Either they tell you, or you ask them! It’s better if you avoid trying to guess. If you need to use a pronoun and you haven’t been told them, go with they/them.
Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ?
Nope, not at all! No one is expecting you to know their pronouns before they tell you, or you ask.
Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
Usually not - most of the time, you probably can guess from gender expression, and you wouldn’t cause any offence. If there is even 1% doubt in your mind though, you should definitely just ask. Even if you’re 99.99% or even 100% sure, it’s good to ask anyways. The more we normalise people asking and sharing pronouns, the less awkward it becomes for everyone!
I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
In my experience, it’s pretty uncommon, but it does exist. Usually they’re used by people who don’t really feel comfortable identifying as exclusively male or exclusively female, or by people who want to subvert or oppose the usual gender binary.
Hope this helps, thanks for being open with your questions and for trying to make the world a better place! If you have any other questions just ask.
Yes, your pronouns are he/him :)
Generally, people are pretty chill about it. If you are unsure how to refer to someone, you can always just call them by their first name or something else (the barista at the front counter, the person in the yellow sweater, etc!)
I wouldn’t overthink it, most people are totally cool if you get it wrong, especially if you show a willingness to get it right from then on. Queer people just wanna be treated like everyone else :)
-queer guy living in the gay district
you can always just call them by their first name or something else
Well I didn’t know you were called Dennis.
I make assumptions say what i think if im corrected then sure ill refer to u how u want. And when people get mad for me assuming they can get fucked and grow up they are juat words and if words hurt u that bad uve got bigger problems than ur pronouns.
Facts. My mom is Spanish ASF and to this day regularly misgenders people all the time (call me and my brother she, call sisters he), just hasn’t come easy to her. As long as somebody isn’t INTENTIONALLY calling u the wrong pronouns for the express purpose of pissing you off u just correct them and move on. If u get that hung up on a simple innocent mistake u need to step back and adjust your shitty attitude.
I think the key is for it to be a provisional guess and not a will-be-shocked-if-it’s-wrong assumption. You need to be prepared to have been wrong.
I agree with what you’re saying but there’s a gentler way to say this. No need to say they can get fucked.
Yeah sometimes i forgot that not everyone uses swear words like we do down under
Yeah, I think that’s pretty much all that is generally needed. I’ve had people assume but ask me first, just asking “she/her?” as a question, I respond yes, we go about our business. If you don’t want to assume, you can also pretty much universally use they/them in passing, or if it’s someone you interact with more frequently, people really don’t tend to mind if you ask.
I mean I’m trans, I get around quite a bit in queer spaces, I haven’t met anyone who would get super mad about initially assuming pronouns rather than just saying “hey I prefer XYZ” and moving on. Generally when people react strongly to being misgendered, it’s due to ongoing conflict over their identities, having to deal with people who use pronouns to casually disregard your Identity, familial abandonment, etc. It is often a response to complex trauma from elsewhere. That’s not really your responsibility, but I’ve been there and if you can offer them any grace in those moments, it’s extremely helpful.
I have been using “they/them” to refer to unknown internet persons, regardless of gender, since years now. It is a strategy I adopted not out of the progressive social culture norms, but as a way to anonymise people when referring to them or anything they say. And what do you know, turns out that ambiguous linguistics work like a charm across a wide range of things in life.
Also it’s literally the way you’re supposed to refer to individuals of unknown gender.
Most people today conform to the standards, either out of fear of getting cancelled or out of respect for humanity (recognising third gender and so on). I adopted the convention long before it was known or “popular” to do so. Each of these 3 cases have a huge difference.
To someone like me, it felt very disorienting for people to be so chimp headed, they could not or refused to understand that gender and sex are not the same thing, just because it used to always be 2 tickboxes on school forms. Even more weird was why people would not use ambiguous pronouns for cultural privacy.
IMO, I think the world is going to transition to using they/them for gender unspecified folks. I’ve been practicing using they/them in written and spoken communications, and it comes off a lot less strange than you’d think.
*The English speaking world
You mean to tell me that they don’t use English pronouns in other languages? I’m gonna need a source on that one, buddy!
Although, more seriously, I am curious if other languages lacking common usage of gender neutral pronouns are doing similar things to they/them. I know mandarin also has a bit of a weird situation where the third person pronoun when spoken is gender neutral, but the characters are gendered (他/她/它 are all PRONOUNced “ta”). I don’t know too much about why this is, but it sounds like it was foreign influence that led to the distinction in the written form?
I know at least for French it’s been more controversial as there was no direct they/them equivalent. Instead new language has started to be used, though it’s not standard. I find it interesting as they/them is often defended (beyond the fact that it’s been in use in English for a long long time) as being a language tool in English that’s readily available and a far more palatable alternative to neo-pronouns. However in French (and other languages) I wonder if an invented gender neutral equivalent is culturally perceived as being no different.
Finnish language doesn’t have gender specific pronous. Our equivalance for he/she is “hän” and it just refers to a person - not any specific gender. You can literally identify as anything you like, and “hän” still includes to you. Seems like the obvious solution to the “issue”.
I have worked in IT for 15+ years, and I default to they/them for pretty much everybody. If I get a ticket in for an end user, and the name on the ticket is Jaime or something, it’s a coin toss on the gender, so I just go to they/them. Even if the name is more gender oriented, I don’t make any assumptions. And of course there is the case for foreign names I have never heard before. There’s no harm in using they/them. Or of course the ol’ “The end user”
I just replied to another comment saying this. It’s trivial and I ask others to do it. I was thinking it would be easy to build this into grammar check software - prompt the user to ask if the document is gender specific, and if not suggest they/them.
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This is a wonderfully put together comprehensive and informative reply. Thank you :)
Pronouns are largely used to refer to people in the third person. As such I will never declare my pronouns because they aren’t for me to use, they’re for other people to use to refer to me. As such they should use whatever pronouns deliver maximal clarity for the listener.
I will respect others’ pronoun preferences because I’m not an asshole, but when people start trying to tell me that I’m being bigoted by not stating my own pronouns, they can fuck off.
Just for another use case, pronouns can help clarify if you prefer to be called sir or ma’am.
I wouldn’t call you a bigot for not having preferred pronouns though, that seems really silly.
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