From my reading I don’t think it is possible, but I’m open to learning how one can achieve a zero carbohydrate diet using only plant foods. @Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com has graciously offered to look into the matter.

Motivation - Why zero carb matters:

  • Carbohydrates end up in the blood stream as glucose
  • blood glucose is a direct driver of insulin
  • persistently elevated insulin is a serious health concern
  • cancers can only metabolize glucose, and cannot perform oxidative phosphorylation - i.e. they only run on glucose, so carbohydrates feed cancers.

why chronic hyperinsulinemia is bad:

  • type 2 diabetes
  • high blood pressure
  • atherosclerosis
  • pcos
  • visceral fat
  • ectopic fat (i.e. snoring)

Functional differences between pbf and abf:

  • plant sterols interfere with human cholesterol signaling, we are made of cholesterol, this leads to higher inflammation and lower ldl (that is actually a bad thing)
  • lectins and inflammation - most pbf have lectins inside of them, these lectins bind to cells throughout the body which leads to autoimmune responses (from mild inflammation, to full anaphylactic shock)

nice to have’s on a zero carb diet:

  • local food that doesn’t have to be shipped around the world
  • regenerative agriculture, there is no top soil without ruminants
  • farming without external inputs like industrial fertilizer
  • food without pesticide residue
  • jet@hackertalks.comOPMEnglish
    2·
    1 month ago

    Great. Btw if you don’t like studies on mice there are many human studies cited on wikipedia.

    I’ll read any paper you have read, so we can talk about it.

    I do believe that humans are built for high carb, whole food diets, less frequent eating, and endurance. So the issue isn’t in carbs but the lack of the rest in modern man.

    I agree on whole food diets, frequency, and endurance. Humans CAN use high carb, but its not essential.

    Once people are sick, however, fixing hyperinsulinemia is essential, which means removing the carbs.

      • jet@hackertalks.comOPMEnglish
        2·
        1 month ago

        I haven’t read any one of them in detail but we can discuss any one of them you like. I just read the abstract, result, and conclusions mostly.

        Do any of the papers cover WHY they think carbs are essential? Something like …

        If we posit that keto is dangerous, that directly implies there is such a thing as an essential carbohydrate in human health. What would the mechanism of action be to require such a essential carbohydrate?

        If the body is able to make glucose on demand (gluconeogenesis in the liver being the most famous), why can’t that suffice for the potential mechanism of the essential carbohydrate?

        FWIW: here is a resource I very much respect, they cite all their sources extensively - https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/skeptical-doctors

          • jet@hackertalks.comOPMEnglish
            3·
            1 month ago

            My understanding is that gluconeogenesis occurs during starvation and intense exercise.

            Actually, its always happening, even if your eating a bunch of carbs.

            We never had low carb diets during evolution. So we never got efficient and clean at digesting and metabolizing fats and proteins into carbs / energy.

            Intuit are a example of a low carb population that was studied in modern times. Also, think in a paleo context, not main grains to have on a daily basis, fruit would only be seasonal and winter would have almost no plant based options.

            Most of the long term harm is due to accumulation of metabolites, stress on the liver and kidneys.

            Why would metabolites accumulate? The kidneys are functioning. We see on keto that liver and kidney issues resolve quickly

            And you eventually develop glucose intolerance because of the law of use and disuse.

            I don’t know if you saw my big writeup of your paper in this post, but keto 100% does not create glucose intolerance. The pancreas stops keeping a cache of insulin for quick release in long term keto metabolism, but it quickly refills the pool when carbs are reintroduced (1-2 days).

            Update:

            Case study in humans about the necessity of introducing carbohydrates for 3 days before a OGTT: https://doi.org/10.1210/jendso/bvab049 - note she was not doing keto, she just skipped dinner the day before. You will note the mice study you provided did not do the 3 day carb loading protocol for the OGTT.

              • xep@discuss.onlineMEnglish
                3·
                1 month ago

                I’m able to fast for 5 days without trouble on zero carb, FWIW. N=1 but you are welcome to ask this particular sample anything you like, I’ve been low carb for more than 5 years and zero carb for almost one.

              • jet@hackertalks.comOPMEnglish
                2·
                1 month ago

                These issues are different from those caused by hyperinsulinemia.

                Do you have any references on liver and kidney issues cause by low blood sugar?

                The 1st paper observed glucose intolerance in mice who were on a keto diet. (Title)

                And I spent 25 minutes writing rebutting paragraphs with references to that paper… even getting a reference from the paper author themselves that they reversed it by refeeding carbs.

                That’s still not ideal. I prefer to be metabolically flexible and robust. Even if I eat 300g sugar one day or starve for a week on rare occasions it shouldn’t affect me much.

                Fair enough! You do you, but it demonstrates that keto is not harming insulin response.

                  • jet@hackertalks.comOPMEnglish
                    2·
                    1 month ago

                    The wiki article has some references in the health aspects and safety section.

                    Sure, but if you haven’t read them, I’m not going to read them on your behalf - you wouldn’t believe my analysis anyway. :) Because right now given everything I’ve read such a link hasn’t been demonstrated.

                    But yea you can always switch to other diets if it doesn’t work or face any issues. So it’s alright!

                    Fair enough, yeah - if whatever your doing is working for you, no worries.