From my reading I don’t think it is possible, but I’m open to learning how one can achieve a zero carbohydrate diet using only plant foods. @Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com has graciously offered to look into the matter.
Motivation - Why zero carb matters:
- Carbohydrates end up in the blood stream as glucose
- blood glucose is a direct driver of insulin
- persistently elevated insulin is a serious health concern
- cancers can only metabolize glucose, and cannot perform oxidative phosphorylation - i.e. they only run on glucose, so carbohydrates feed cancers.
why chronic hyperinsulinemia is bad:
- type 2 diabetes
- high blood pressure
- atherosclerosis
- pcos
- visceral fat
- ectopic fat (i.e. snoring)
Functional differences between pbf and abf:
- plant sterols interfere with human cholesterol signaling, we are made of cholesterol, this leads to higher inflammation and lower ldl (that is actually a bad thing)
- lectins and inflammation - most pbf have lectins inside of them, these lectins bind to cells throughout the body which leads to autoimmune responses (from mild inflammation, to full anaphylactic shock)
nice to have’s on a zero carb diet:
- local food that doesn’t have to be shipped around the world
- regenerative agriculture, there is no top soil without ruminants
- farming without external inputs like industrial fertilizer
- food without pesticide residue
Actually, its always happening, even if your eating a bunch of carbs.
Intuit are a example of a low carb population that was studied in modern times. Also, think in a paleo context, not main grains to have on a daily basis, fruit would only be seasonal and winter would have almost no plant based options.
Why would metabolites accumulate? The kidneys are functioning. We see on keto that liver and kidney issues resolve quickly
I don’t know if you saw my big writeup of your paper in this post, but keto 100% does not create glucose intolerance. The pancreas stops keeping a cache of insulin for quick release in long term keto metabolism, but it quickly refills the pool when carbs are reintroduced (1-2 days).
Update:
Case study in humans about the necessity of introducing carbohydrates for 3 days before a OGTT: https://doi.org/10.1210/jendso/bvab049 - note she was not doing keto, she just skipped dinner the day before. You will note the mice study you provided did not do the 3 day carb loading protocol for the OGTT.
Yep but the amount varies based on how much is needed to maintain blood glucose levels. Gluconeogenesis occurs in high amounts during the conditions I mentioned.
Kidneys can’t clean up everything. For example they do get rid of some excess blood sugar but not enough to bring it to normal levels.
These issues are different from those caused by hyperinsulinemia.
The 1st paper observed glucose intolerance in mice who were on a keto diet. (Title)
But even if we accept that the pancreas stops keeping a cache of insulin and recovers within days. That’s still not ideal. I prefer to be metabolically flexible and robust. Even if I eat 300g sugar one day or starve for a week on rare occasions it shouldn’t affect me much.
Update:
kudos on mentioning the innuit. I guess some people have found a way to survive on a low carb diet for months at a time.
I’m able to fast for 5 days without trouble on zero carb, FWIW. N=1 but you are welcome to ask this particular sample anything you like, I’ve been low carb for more than 5 years and zero carb for almost one.
🙌 It’s expected because keto diets mimic a fast but not fully. You are adapted to using fat as fuel.
My post was about metabolic flexibility. being able to handle a 7 day water fast just as well as a rare sugary treat because accidents happen and being resilient to many forms of environmental stresses is key to longevity and healthspan.
Thanks. I’m curious. What benefits did you get from being on a low carb diet? Is your mood and exercise performance to your liking? Any adverse effects? What does your diet look like each day?
Likewise. You can ask me anything about my diet / lifestyle.
Do you have any references on liver and kidney issues cause by low blood sugar?
And I spent 25 minutes writing rebutting paragraphs with references to that paper… even getting a reference from the paper author themselves that they reversed it by refeeding carbs.
Fair enough! You do you, but it demonstrates that keto is not harming insulin response.
I read your rebuttal now. I remember reading somewhere else too about the glucose intolerance. If I find it I’ll post it here.
The wiki article has some references in the health aspects and safety section.
But yea you can always switch to other diets if it doesn’t work or face any issues. So it’s alright!
Sure, but if you haven’t read them, I’m not going to read them on your behalf - you wouldn’t believe my analysis anyway. :) Because right now given everything I’ve read such a link hasn’t been demonstrated.
Fair enough, yeah - if whatever your doing is working for you, no worries.
Yea I tend to go with the conclusions the experts in the field have made in the papers. I don’t try to rebutt them or analyze them myself.
Yea it’s been working really great for over a decade. So maybe I’m a bit biased because of that 😅
That is just a appeal to authority, but fair enough, here are experts in the field rebutting the wikipedia page (which is edited by non-experts in the field) https://doi.org/10.1016/C2019-0-03604-7
Happy to discus the 1400 page medical textbook with you at length.
Or if you prefer something more wiki-like - https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/skeptical-doctors (again, experts in the field, practicing, and a full appeal to authority)
I have no issue with your health choices, I take umbrage in you trying to warn people away from keto, which has significant metabolic advantages for people, using a very flawed mouse study where data in humans directly contradicts it. Appeal to authority or no, we have obligation to verify the things we amplify.
Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy—appeal to authority is only fallacious when the authority in question is not an actual authority.
By experts I don’t mean physicians or doctors. I mean scientists who study and publish peer reviewed research in this field.
I prefer wikipedia or non profits like nutritionfacts.org. And they are full of sources that conclude keto is bad long term. And my experience has been the same too. That’s why I warn people off of it.
That is also what I provided you.
is edited by people who are not scientists and peer reviewed editors. It is cherry picked.
The authorities I provided you are practicing metabolic researchers, who are peer reviewed (hence the doi link), and have large bodies of human patients to provide data from.
Nutrition facts is a philosophically plant based organization and while they can be helpful we have to consider the bias that will bring to their selection of mater. They are NOT scientists, they are not doing active research, they are not practicing metabolic clinicians working with humans on ketogenic metabolic therapy.
What experience was that? What happened to your metrics?
I think it’s not great to drop papers like you read them (abstract and conclusions are opinions, not data, and really shouldn’t be presented as reading the paper), and are unwilling to engage in a discussion of the paper, and just want to repeat your talking point, or appeal to more papers without deep engagement. It feels like this dialog hasn’t helped either of us.
I think I have detailed why your initial statement that keto impacts peoples ability to produce insulin is deeply flawed (especially in humans) and you haven’t engaged me on that, or disagreed, or agreed, just repeat your initial “warning” with a platitude that I can always switch to another diet when it stops working… I hope you can see why this is frustrating, your activity here feels performative just to get a dig into keto, and not actually caring about truth or nuance.