Well, I think there could be some practical utility to having a Dem senate seat flip. Lots of socialists and radicals vote in elections, and I’d like to see the seat flip blue, if only to punish the right. But practically, I agree actual conditions and consciousness won’t be affected by this election. I’m in favor of checking a box on a specific day, but anything beyond that is a waste of our capacity.
There are specific edge cases where having Platner in that position is marginally better than Collins. Other edge cases where he is worse. I think the current approach of much of the left is good for the first scenario, Platner is a good case of “he isnt one of us, here are the receipts” when our enemies try to pin his false progressive pedigree on us. A future primary against him with an actual progressive candidate would help expose the complicity and corruption of the Democrats, if his term actually goes Fetterman. There would be much more evidence for it after 6 years than now when he has no record.
Honestly I dont think he will win so its all kinda moot. Just because he is a marginally viable candidate doesn’t unseat Collins, you can’t vote a dragon out of office, they have to be “slain” politically. The concrete basis, the mass movement capable of getting her out, just doesn’t exist in Maine, as far as I can tell. Support will only lead to demoralization, but I think there’s tactical utility to flipping the seat.
But like I said, there are scenarios where he is actually worse than Collins, so a political difference could appear in prioritizing those edge cases
But like I said, there are scenarios where he is actually worse than Collins, so a political difference could appear in prioritizing those edge cases
Who cares? Are there any other states into which self-proclaimed progressives are taking so much effort to promote a “slightly better” (actual Nazi mass murderer) candidate? This is all so clearly an orchestrated multi-million dollar campaign by the DNC establishment with their very polished Nazi turd. There’s nothing progressive going on here.
I never said progressives should make an effort to promote him. I said multiple times that we shouldn’t. Just let the situation run its course and queue up the next bozo.
If Platner goes right with Fetterman, that hurts democrats in the eyes of progressives. That is a good thing for socialists, because it gives us a basis to criticize the democrats and affect consciousness around them. But we should not put any effort into promoting him, even tactically, because doing so could harm radical movements in the eyes of the working class.
Do you understand the difference between, “I hope he beats a republican” and “I will do whatever it takes to get him elected”? My position is literally " I dont care and neither should you" and you’re telling me to not care differently.
You seem really invested in the idea of not checking a box for him. You haven’t addressed any of my points, and have started making up things I didn’t say to attack the idea of checking a box that, by your own admission, doesn’t matter if it is checked or not.
I am interested in knowing under what conditions a vote for Platner is worse than a vote for Collins. If you can’t come up with even a single one, then what are you even talking about?
Hurt the Democrats? It hurts the progressives. It’s like nobody has learned a thing from Fetterman. Running some guy with a shady past and all the red flags isn’t going to help the progressive movement. It’s only going to turn off people in the future when the inevitable betrayal comes.
And people should be turned off by a “progressive” movement which endorses Nazi mass murderers. Because it isn’t a viable political strategy. Which loops back to my point.
This is like promoting Kamala against Trump instead of picking someone better. Even if Platner wins it won’t help in the long term.
Thinking about this discussion a lot the last few days. Talked about it broadly in cadre discussions too, as part of a larger discussion. I think your stance was more principled than mine, which had the effect of moving me away from sort of a fence sitting position toward a rightist, opportunist one. Should have been asking more questions if I wasn’t committed or as of yet unsure. Your opposition pushed me right where I belonged, which ultimately was indefensible. So, I’ll take it as a serious lesson. Thanks for standing firm, at least one of us wasn’t rationalizing them self into a fucking gutter
A big issue was all the prominent US “leftists” supporting Platner and handwaiving away all the extremely obvious red flags. They launched personal attacks against anyone who pushed back against Platner and called them things like Ultra’s. I’ve been banned from lemmy.world/c/progressivepolitics for calling out Platner as well. They really wanted to keep the illusion alive.
For example I like watching Breaking Points but I’ve learned from the Platner incident that US leftists can be hypercritical of things Israel does, but when it’s Americans themselves doing similar things, they just don’t care at all.
They call out the IDF soldiers war crimes and say they can’t be reformed but when you tell them the US army has basically done the same in all their invasions of the Middle East they get angry and make exucses for it. The American supremacy runs very deep.
One particularly noteworthy thing is that I asked people if they could find any instance of Platner saying he regretted his service, and they never could, but somehow this still didn’t shatter the illusion.
Hm. When my dad was in the Air Force, he got a confederate flag tattoo. According to legend, he fell in with a group of southern guys who told him it would make him “one of them.” Years later, he did get it covered, before getting a job where he worried it would be inappropriate. I think he had mixed feelings about it, but also he never like denounced racism either. In his old age, he def got hooked on Fox news for a while. I grew up in a place where racism doesn’t get challenged, where peoples experiences dont help them to grow beyond backwardness.
I love my dad. He’s not a bad person, and he is a really good person in many ways. He could be a better person, but there are def structural obstacles, like I said. He’s not a virulent, hateful racist, but he is kinda backward in many many ways.
I think when I heard of Platner’s tattoo, I sort of understood it the same way I understood this contradiction with my own father. I mean, Platner is younger than me, it wasn’t a fatherly identification (I think), but I could imagine my dad as a younger man when he still had the tattoo. Granted, dad never ran as a US Senator, but there was sort of learned blindness around it that got transferred to Platner. Dad never really denounced or regretted his time in the military, but he also never talked about it. I got the impression he had some trauma from it.
I think your points are really good here. Like being able to denounce the IDF as an “other” while being soft on American military probably has to do with either personal experiences like mine, or structural opportunism (let’s face it, they’re one in the same via hegemony). I think your question about “does he regret his service” is a really revealing insight and a good approach. It gives him a chance to be real about it, to “set the record straight” on a personal level. I think I also didn’t really make a distinction between his Blackwater work and his US military work. All of my friends who are veterans will denounce the US Military. My brother will tell anyone he hated his time in the military. Its not a huge ask for a leftist, or a moderate with progressive attitudes. I know so many people, and yeah veterans can just straight up become anti-imperialists. They do not have to become PMCs and work for companies that had to rebrand because of extensive war crimes. And they do not have to be okay with that years later, once they’ve “changed.”
I wish I had discussed this with local comrades earlier. When we were talking about Platner last night, one of my comrades brought up their experience with 2020 protests, and the boogaloo boys. They said that when the Boogs hit the scene there was a lot of controversy around their participation in protests, and many of them had “tattoos” that were red flags. Still, many people defended their participation, at the time. Years later, we know they were just Nazis doing like “activist left-moderate cosplay,” the evidence is overwhelming. My comrade just put it plain: people with Nazi tattoos have never been our allies, and they never will be.
I’m def reflecting on how twisted up and contradictory these conditions are. How my personal experiences were basically used against me. How I wasn’t concrete about what kind of things are forgiveable, and in what context. The structural contradiction around the US military led me to be less concrete about the facts, to just let myself be confused by very straightforward facts, and how it led to being wishy washy about the senate run of a rapist fascist, which led to me actually defending him when facing principles opposition.
But this is why I engage in debate. Not because I want to win or dominate in the marketplace of ideas, but because it is a form of self education. Anyway, I appreciate you engaging with my wrongheadedness. I know from experience it doesn’t always change peoples minds, but that’s why it was worth letting you know that in this case, I remember our discussion and recognize just how fucked up my position ended up being: not just that I was defending him but how I ended up defending him when I never had any intention of doing so.
I’m not advocating for progressive groups supporting him at all!
I’m saying that maybe people in Maine should check a box for him.
If he is a Nazi that could also work out for progressives as a propaganda point (you are certainly wearing the tread out on it) and help sell the idea of party discipline for the masses, another win for socialist politics, and another loss for Democratic party, since socialists tend to like the idea of party discipline
Fetterman hurts the Democratic party in the eyes of progressives. That is good for socialists who want to split the dems and create a legitimate alternative to the Democratic party.
There are numerous examples of a left challenger overturning shitty Democrats. AOC, Jamaal Bowman, Summer Lee, Marie Newman, Abdelnasser Rashid, and Chris Rabb are all examples of progressives taking a win off of moderate Democratic incumbents. While many of these examples are far from perfect, they prove a trend of replacing shitty moderates with progressives.
Its also not a foregone conclusion that he will vote in lockstep with republicans 100% of the time, and if he does then a more progressive candidate could primary him. The only instance where you might be correct would be if he becomes a literal Fetterman, and even though I tend to agree that is a very strong possibility, you can’t prove that and there is little real indication that is the case. Its far more likely he is an idiot than it is he is a Nazi. He would have covered the tattoo if he was a Nazi trying to infiltrate progressive politics. Its far more likely he is going to be a moderate than a ringer for the extreme right. But I wouldn’t rule it out.
You dont have to agree with me! But stop lying about what I’m arguing.
Edited a rude first comment that I wrote out of frustration
I’m not a progressive party though, I’m just some moron online. I dont consider checking a box a actual work that progressives should do. I would not advocate an endorsement or knocking doors or doing propaganda.
Maybe you think voting is the be all end all. I do not. Maybe you think individual votes are the same as party support. I do not. The senate is a fundamentally undemocratic institution and its probably a waste of time to run as a socialist for Senate.
But voting is just checking a box, and we let the undemocratic political machine do what it does, nothing more.
Well, I think there could be some practical utility to having a Dem senate seat flip. Lots of socialists and radicals vote in elections, and I’d like to see the seat flip blue, if only to punish the right. But practically, I agree actual conditions and consciousness won’t be affected by this election. I’m in favor of checking a box on a specific day, but anything beyond that is a waste of our capacity.
There are specific edge cases where having Platner in that position is marginally better than Collins. Other edge cases where he is worse. I think the current approach of much of the left is good for the first scenario, Platner is a good case of “he isnt one of us, here are the receipts” when our enemies try to pin his false progressive pedigree on us. A future primary against him with an actual progressive candidate would help expose the complicity and corruption of the Democrats, if his term actually goes Fetterman. There would be much more evidence for it after 6 years than now when he has no record.
Honestly I dont think he will win so its all kinda moot. Just because he is a marginally viable candidate doesn’t unseat Collins, you can’t vote a dragon out of office, they have to be “slain” politically. The concrete basis, the mass movement capable of getting her out, just doesn’t exist in Maine, as far as I can tell. Support will only lead to demoralization, but I think there’s tactical utility to flipping the seat.
But like I said, there are scenarios where he is actually worse than Collins, so a political difference could appear in prioritizing those edge cases
Who cares? Are there any other states into which self-proclaimed progressives are taking so much effort to promote a “slightly better” (actual Nazi mass murderer) candidate? This is all so clearly an orchestrated multi-million dollar campaign by the DNC establishment with their very polished Nazi turd. There’s nothing progressive going on here.
I never said progressives should make an effort to promote him. I said multiple times that we shouldn’t. Just let the situation run its course and queue up the next bozo.
If Platner goes right with Fetterman, that hurts democrats in the eyes of progressives. That is a good thing for socialists, because it gives us a basis to criticize the democrats and affect consciousness around them. But we should not put any effort into promoting him, even tactically, because doing so could harm radical movements in the eyes of the working class.
Do you understand the difference between, “I hope he beats a republican” and “I will do whatever it takes to get him elected”? My position is literally " I dont care and neither should you" and you’re telling me to not care differently.
You seem really invested in the idea of not checking a box for him. You haven’t addressed any of my points, and have started making up things I didn’t say to attack the idea of checking a box that, by your own admission, doesn’t matter if it is checked or not.
I am interested in knowing under what conditions a vote for Platner is worse than a vote for Collins. If you can’t come up with even a single one, then what are you even talking about?
Hurt the Democrats? It hurts the progressives. It’s like nobody has learned a thing from Fetterman. Running some guy with a shady past and all the red flags isn’t going to help the progressive movement. It’s only going to turn off people in the future when the inevitable betrayal comes.
And people should be turned off by a “progressive” movement which endorses Nazi mass murderers. Because it isn’t a viable political strategy. Which loops back to my point.
This is like promoting Kamala against Trump instead of picking someone better. Even if Platner wins it won’t help in the long term.
Okay you were absolutely right.
Props for admitting it. I’m betting we’re still only at the tip of the iceberg but luckily he’s gone now.
Thinking about this discussion a lot the last few days. Talked about it broadly in cadre discussions too, as part of a larger discussion. I think your stance was more principled than mine, which had the effect of moving me away from sort of a fence sitting position toward a rightist, opportunist one. Should have been asking more questions if I wasn’t committed or as of yet unsure. Your opposition pushed me right where I belonged, which ultimately was indefensible. So, I’ll take it as a serious lesson. Thanks for standing firm, at least one of us wasn’t rationalizing them self into a fucking gutter
A big issue was all the prominent US “leftists” supporting Platner and handwaiving away all the extremely obvious red flags. They launched personal attacks against anyone who pushed back against Platner and called them things like Ultra’s. I’ve been banned from lemmy.world/c/progressivepolitics for calling out Platner as well. They really wanted to keep the illusion alive.
Kavernacle describes it well in his most new video https://youtu.be/v8BfC26dffo?t=532
For example I like watching Breaking Points but I’ve learned from the Platner incident that US leftists can be hypercritical of things Israel does, but when it’s Americans themselves doing similar things, they just don’t care at all.
They call out the IDF soldiers war crimes and say they can’t be reformed but when you tell them the US army has basically done the same in all their invasions of the Middle East they get angry and make exucses for it. The American supremacy runs very deep.
One particularly noteworthy thing is that I asked people if they could find any instance of Platner saying he regretted his service, and they never could, but somehow this still didn’t shatter the illusion.
Hm. When my dad was in the Air Force, he got a confederate flag tattoo. According to legend, he fell in with a group of southern guys who told him it would make him “one of them.” Years later, he did get it covered, before getting a job where he worried it would be inappropriate. I think he had mixed feelings about it, but also he never like denounced racism either. In his old age, he def got hooked on Fox news for a while. I grew up in a place where racism doesn’t get challenged, where peoples experiences dont help them to grow beyond backwardness.
I love my dad. He’s not a bad person, and he is a really good person in many ways. He could be a better person, but there are def structural obstacles, like I said. He’s not a virulent, hateful racist, but he is kinda backward in many many ways.
I think when I heard of Platner’s tattoo, I sort of understood it the same way I understood this contradiction with my own father. I mean, Platner is younger than me, it wasn’t a fatherly identification (I think), but I could imagine my dad as a younger man when he still had the tattoo. Granted, dad never ran as a US Senator, but there was sort of learned blindness around it that got transferred to Platner. Dad never really denounced or regretted his time in the military, but he also never talked about it. I got the impression he had some trauma from it.
I think your points are really good here. Like being able to denounce the IDF as an “other” while being soft on American military probably has to do with either personal experiences like mine, or structural opportunism (let’s face it, they’re one in the same via hegemony). I think your question about “does he regret his service” is a really revealing insight and a good approach. It gives him a chance to be real about it, to “set the record straight” on a personal level. I think I also didn’t really make a distinction between his Blackwater work and his US military work. All of my friends who are veterans will denounce the US Military. My brother will tell anyone he hated his time in the military. Its not a huge ask for a leftist, or a moderate with progressive attitudes. I know so many people, and yeah veterans can just straight up become anti-imperialists. They do not have to become PMCs and work for companies that had to rebrand because of extensive war crimes. And they do not have to be okay with that years later, once they’ve “changed.”
I wish I had discussed this with local comrades earlier. When we were talking about Platner last night, one of my comrades brought up their experience with 2020 protests, and the boogaloo boys. They said that when the Boogs hit the scene there was a lot of controversy around their participation in protests, and many of them had “tattoos” that were red flags. Still, many people defended their participation, at the time. Years later, we know they were just Nazis doing like “activist left-moderate cosplay,” the evidence is overwhelming. My comrade just put it plain: people with Nazi tattoos have never been our allies, and they never will be.
I’m def reflecting on how twisted up and contradictory these conditions are. How my personal experiences were basically used against me. How I wasn’t concrete about what kind of things are forgiveable, and in what context. The structural contradiction around the US military led me to be less concrete about the facts, to just let myself be confused by very straightforward facts, and how it led to being wishy washy about the senate run of a rapist fascist, which led to me actually defending him when facing principles opposition.
But this is why I engage in debate. Not because I want to win or dominate in the marketplace of ideas, but because it is a form of self education. Anyway, I appreciate you engaging with my wrongheadedness. I know from experience it doesn’t always change peoples minds, but that’s why it was worth letting you know that in this case, I remember our discussion and recognize just how fucked up my position ended up being: not just that I was defending him but how I ended up defending him when I never had any intention of doing so.
I’m not advocating for progressive groups supporting him at all!
I’m saying that maybe people in Maine should check a box for him.
If he is a Nazi that could also work out for progressives as a propaganda point (you are certainly wearing the tread out on it) and help sell the idea of party discipline for the masses, another win for socialist politics, and another loss for Democratic party, since socialists tend to like the idea of party discipline
Fetterman hurts the Democratic party in the eyes of progressives. That is good for socialists who want to split the dems and create a legitimate alternative to the Democratic party.
There are numerous examples of a left challenger overturning shitty Democrats. AOC, Jamaal Bowman, Summer Lee, Marie Newman, Abdelnasser Rashid, and Chris Rabb are all examples of progressives taking a win off of moderate Democratic incumbents. While many of these examples are far from perfect, they prove a trend of replacing shitty moderates with progressives.
Its also not a foregone conclusion that he will vote in lockstep with republicans 100% of the time, and if he does then a more progressive candidate could primary him. The only instance where you might be correct would be if he becomes a literal Fetterman, and even though I tend to agree that is a very strong possibility, you can’t prove that and there is little real indication that is the case. Its far more likely he is an idiot than it is he is a Nazi. He would have covered the tattoo if he was a Nazi trying to infiltrate progressive politics. Its far more likely he is going to be a moderate than a ringer for the extreme right. But I wouldn’t rule it out.
You dont have to agree with me! But stop lying about what I’m arguing.
Edited a rude first comment that I wrote out of frustration
So you’re advocating for him.
I’m not a progressive party though, I’m just some moron online. I dont consider checking a box a actual work that progressives should do. I would not advocate an endorsement or knocking doors or doing propaganda.
Maybe you think voting is the be all end all. I do not. Maybe you think individual votes are the same as party support. I do not. The senate is a fundamentally undemocratic institution and its probably a waste of time to run as a socialist for Senate.
But voting is just checking a box, and we let the undemocratic political machine do what it does, nothing more.