You’re a prison abolitionist. You’re in a high stakes discussion where you have to answer seriously and be convincing.
Someone asks you : “yeah, but what are we to do with people breaking the law, then? What will you replace prisons with ?”
What will you answer?
I don’t think it’s possible to abolish prisons for all crimes. But why does a thief or a drug dealer (or worse, just a drug user) need to be in prison? What about the nature of their crimes necessitates imprisonment as a reasonable method of corrections?
If the point is stopping people from reoffending, prisons don’t do that. Like objectively. Recidivism in the US is super high, and going to prison predicts increases in the severity of crimes people commit.
So, what reduces recidivism? Eliminating the factors that drove them to crime in the first place. So, you monitor them closely - house arrest, assigned social/case workers, etc. Like a more robust parole system for nonviolent offenders. With enough surveillance, you can reduce the liklihood of reoffence by making the chances of getting caught much higher. This enhanced monitoring would be temporary.
For violent offenders and more serious criminals, maybe prisons are still necessary. But they don’t have to be dehumanizing and can provide necessary health/psychiatric, educational, social, and job skills training.
You could make the corrections system more effective by making society easier for criminals to reintegrate into. If you’re a felon and you can’t find work because you’re a felon - how are you going to afford to live within the confines of the law? Step 1) jobs programs for felons with a path to eliminating non-violent offenses from your record as it relates to work with exceptions as necessary. Step 2) improve the education system to prevent people from turning to crime and to help give former criminals relevant job skills to earn an honest living. Step 3) provide healthcare to people - having access to healthcare for mental and addiction-related conditions is super important to reduce crime.
Basically - prison abolition isn’t about just letting rapists and murderers go free with no consequences. Instead, people in favor of prison abolition are typically in favor of reducing the societal pressures to commit crimes and preventing reoffense.
In short, prison abolition isn’t about abolishing prisons?
Bad name choice in my opinion, as it immediately makes me think: what a dumb idea. There will surely always be people beyond a point of no return.
No one’s actually saying abolish prisons
Me:
The name is important because of the parallels between slavery and modern day prisons.
At minimum, the movement is about completely rethinking our approach to dealing with crime. If we “only” reduce the prison population to 5% or 1% of its current count in the process, we won’t have abolished all prisons, but we will have succeeded in abolishing many parts of the current criminal justice system.
Yeah. I gather you’re from the US.
I’m not telling you what to do.
If we “only” reduce the prison population to 5% or 1% of its current count in the process
Then why call it abolish prisons?
I see now that you’re trying trying to trigger an additional emotional response. Working on association, rather than logic. Such manipulation, especially, is something I would not want to be a part of. It’s vile.
You do you. I’ll just repeat my original statement: it also drives away people, who would otherwise agree.
I gather you’re from the US.
Yes, but also the prison abolition movement is US specific. I’m not affiliated with it, to be clear - not that I oppose it or anything, but I certainly don’t speak for any of its activists.
If we “only” reduce the prison population to 5% or 1% of its current count in the process
Then why call it abolish prisons?
Have you ever heard the quote “Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you’ll land among the stars?” “Abolition” is a goal, an ideal - and even if it isn’t accomplished fully, working toward that end goal and considering everything necessary to get there along the way is the point.
Along those lines, I posit that if 90% of prisons are torn down or repurposed and the remaining 10% are drastically changed - holding fewer prisoners; not being privately owned and operated; focusing on rehabilitation, like learning new job skills, when possible, and otherwise simply being more humane, then the prison abolition movement would have succeeded.
But if you disagree with the name, what would you call it? “Prison Reform” is already taken and means something drastically different.
And to be clear, for some the goal is to eliminate prisons entirely. The movement isn’t monolithic. Abolishing the “prison institution” as it exists today is a pretty common goal, though, and using “prison” to mean “the prison institution” is a pretty common literary technique called “Synecdoche,” which you likely use every day.
I see now that you’re trying trying to trigger an additional emotional response. Working on association, rather than logic.
It’s a logical association, though. If the name evokes feelings of slavery, that’s a good thing, as the situation is similar enough to slavery to warrant that.
Slavery in the US is still legal (so long as the person is in prison). Black Americans are 5 times as likely to be in prison as white Americans. A black man born in 2001 has a 20% chance of being in prison at some point in his life.
The systemic oppression of black Americans is obviously because of racism, and the parallels between slavery and the prison institution aren’t accidental. For example, here’s a quote from Slavery and the U.S. Prison System:
Gary Webb’s famous investigation revealed that the CIA was operating a gun-running and drug-smuggling operation that brought guns to the Nicaraguan contras that the U.S. was using to destabilize the popular government in that country, while bringing cocaine into the U.S. and funneling it to street-level dealers with access to black inner-city neighborhoods. The history of black street gangs is part of the afterlife of COINTELPRO, the FBI’s counter-intelligence program that actively sabotaged black social movement throughout the long civil rights era. Bobby Lavender, one of the founders of the Bloods in Los Angeles, explained that the COINTELPRO assassinations of black leaders, and the terrorizing of rank-and-file civil rights activists, left an organizational vacuum in many communities that youth like him filled with their “own brand of leadership.” COINTELPRO established a pattern of law enforcement interference and sabotage of black self-determination, including gang truces, from the 1970s through to the present.
Such manipulation, especially, is something I would not want to be a part of. It’s vile.
Personally, I think the systemic sabotage of black people’s livelihood, communities, and families is vile, but you’re welcome to your opinion.
In short, prison abolition isn’t about abolishing prisons?
Bad name choice in my opinion, as it immediately makes me think: what a dumb idea.
This is kind of like saying being anti-war is a dumb idea because there will surely always be wars fought in defense. Being anti-war isn’t necessarily being an absolute pacifist. It’s about opposing war and striving towards a future where war is a relic of the past. Everybody understands this, but struggles to apply the same logic to other topics.
Striving for intentionally utopian and impossible ideals is a great idea, actually, as long as you recognize it for what it is. I’m a prison abolitionist. Ultimately what I strive for is a society that doesn’t need prisons. I don’t know if total prison abolition is possible, but worst case scenario, we get as close as possible. What’s so bad about that?
Similarly, I’m a communist, in the classical anarchist sense: abolition of state, class, and money. Are these things possible? Maybe not. In fact, probably not, at least not in any timeframe where humanity will be recognizable to us, as it would require true peace between all people and absolute post-scarcity in every way available to everyone. But worse case scenario, we get as close as possible.
Ultimately, adopting a utopian ideal is a recognition that the struggle to do better never ends. We’re never “done”. There’s no end of history. Even if we do somehow achieve it, it must be maintained.
Everybody understands this, but struggles to apply the same logic to other topics.
People don’t go: England is polio free, yet there’s people with polio.
Perhaps this method of communication is something that will have to adapt. It disengages a lot of people who otherwise would share the same goals.
I don’t follow. We regularly refer to polio as being “eradicated”, even though there have still been documented (but exceptionally rare) cases of polio transmission even in western countries over the last couple decades. That actually sounds like a perfectly apt comparison for the goals of prison abolition, just not in the way you intended.
I would love to be proved wrong, and see the sourves describing recent polio cases in england!
Would indeed be apt!
A direct case was not reported in the UK in recent years, but evidence of very likely polio transmission was found in sewage samples two years ago:
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/polio-virus-found-in-uk-sewage-samples-risk-to-public-low
A similar situation happened in New York where an actual case was found a month later:
The short of it is, when vaccination rates fall, Polio can be reintroduced via transmission of the live virus found in the oral vaccine, usually taken in poorer countries. If someone were to take the oral vaccine and then immediately travel to a country with lessening vaccination rates, like is currently happening in the west due to the spread of right-wing conspiracy mongering, the live virus still in the vaccinated individual has a low but not zero chance of propagating to the unvaccinated or immune-compromised population there. Samples containing these vaccine-derived viruses are found a few times per year in most places, and it’s a weaker virus so often it leads to no symptoms, but in very rare instances it does take hold with the expected effect:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2022-DON366
Despite individual cases of polio turning up, either via direct reporting or evidence found elsewhere, it would still be correct to describe polio as being “eradicated” in these countries, at least currently. Nobody is confused by this or demands reclassification of the status of polio.
So, none. Traces by RNA amplification in sewages. But there very well might be a right wing conspiracy.
Not an active case, but you’re moving the goalposts in between comments with that criteria.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed answer. I agree with you about almost everything.
Education and intensive face to face therapy.
I prefer ass to ass therapy, personally
What’s wrong with face to ass centipede therapy
Id say: prisons dont work, cost a lot and does huge damage. They also often work as a gateway to heavier crime. I dont need a replacement for that. “Nothing” would still be an improvement. This is the short answer
When that is said, what do we do about crime? Id say that depends, what kind of crime? There are so many different motivations for doing crime, there should be just as many solutions: removing poverty, proper sex education, confiscating the money from the rich, remove the reasons people are doing crime in the first place
We also do a lot of alternatives today: fines, mental hospitals, community service, guidance, conflict counseling, anger management courses, sometimes a serious conversation with the police, childcare help, detox institutions, and a lot more
They have three things in common: they work, they are a lot cheaper and they dont for the same mental damage as torture/prison
And then there are those under 1% og criminals that is totally lost, that need to be locked up. But only until we get a society where they dont get lost…
Seize the illegally obtained wealth, pay civil damages to the victims and rehabilitation program including education and psychological support.
I’m fine saying that people like Dutroux, Breivick or Abdeslam shall not be out before a very long-time. However, they’re not the average criminal.
Let me return you the question, there is that single-mother who struggle to pay the rent, and debt collector knocked her door a few times, a drug dealer ask her if she can keep a package for them and that someone will pick-it up tomorow night and give her 500 € in exchange, does that woman (Which is now part of drug dealer network) desserve jail-time ? Wouldn’t giving her the mean to pay the rent prevent her from needing to take part of drug traffic ? That drunk person has a fight in the train station, the other fighter falls on the track as the train arrive, now a person died. Does the person desserve to spend 5-10 years in jail ? Wouldn’t Rehab work better ?
I’ll go even further and say that welfare program, teacher, psychiatrist and some other do way more at preventing crime than police, jail and hard on crime policies
Wouldn’t giving her the mean to pay the rent prevent her from needing to take part of drug traffic ?
From context I gather you’re from Belgium. Isn’t there already OCMW/CPAS for free housing?
What do you do when it’s the single mom in free housing that just wants 500EUR extra cash? Find political consensus to give her a bigger free house, with a pool, and a credit card?
From context I gather you’re from Belgium. Isn’t there already OCMW/CPAS for free housing?
Just because they’re from one country (assuming they actually are,) doesn’t mean they’re speaking from the perspective of that country. Most people will assume if you’re speaking English you’re from America or some such.
What do you do when it’s the single mom in free housing that just wants 500EUR extra cash? Find political consensus to give her a bigger free house, with a pool, and a credit card?
You’re just using a completely different scenario to move the goalposts. I believe that they’re point was that imprisoning people for committing a crime in pursuit of basic survival is pretty fucking shitty.
You’re just using a completely different scenario to move the goalposts.
How so? If you abolish prisons, they’re abolished for every scenario
I think I understand the spirit of your question, but the way you’ve worded it suggests that the law is immutable and/or that lawbreakers are necessarily evildoers. I interpret the question as “without incarceration, what do we do about those who do harm to others”. To that I would answer that we need institutions and programs that provide various types of care, support, and protection to people and that those who cause harm and do not provide restitution to their victims lose access to those institutions and programs. For example, if a child molester’s house burns down, the fire department would not be expected to try and save them. If it was arson then the arsonist might only get fined for creating an environmental hazard and putting adjacent buildings at risk. The lack of a carceral system would make funding available for the above programs and institutions.
Criminals will be required to work social services for the common good. High-risk criminals will also be put under constant surveillance either by automated systems or, in extreme cases, Human guards to stop them from reoffending.
in starship trooper I believe they replaced all prisons with corporal punishment.
In short, community based restorative justice and support services. I.e., repairing harm through dialogue between victims, offenders, and community members, while addressing root causes like poverty, mental health issues, and substance abuse.
Ultimately, the goal is to create a society where crime is less likely to occur. This requires a shift towards preventive measures that promote social equity and community engagement. Abolishing prisons, for me at least, is one part of a larger movement that values dignity and promotes healing rather than perpetuating cycles of harm
Isn’t the root cause often (generational) trauma. There’s no, within lifetime, solution.
While trauma can be a life sentence in a way, that doesn’t mean it isn’t treatable. I’ll always have a brain formed/rewired by trauma but, through therapy, it no longer impairs my life enough to qualify as a “disorder”
I have diagnosed C-PTSD. But I understand it’s too late now to treat my father or grandfather.
Going prisonless seems, to me, rediculous?
3 psychologists per criminal I’d guess.
Well, that would reduce unemployment.
I don’t need to have a replacement ready. It’s enough for me to say that the current system does not work.
