Feddit.org admins have responded to the recent controversy about the pro-Israel censorship on !europe@feddit.org and elsewhere on their instance. I thought I’d repost it here for greater visibility (since it’s posted in a mainly German language comm). Also, there’s a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it’s a bit hard to tell what’s being removed and how it’s affecting the discussion.
TLDR: They stand fully behind the mods of !europe@feddit.org and their actions (Edit: Because the law, or at least the way the law is being enforced, says they have to)
!Europe@feddit.org mods have also spoken up: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12550375 (https://feddit.org/post/12550375). Their stance seems to be “We live in Germany, and we don’t want the cops breaking down our door. Here’s some examples”. And that’s totally reasonable, I get that and if I lived under that law I’d be behaving the same way. The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe’s most powerful nations isn’t allowed?
Alternative Europe-centric comm, if you’re looking for something censorship-free: !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com
You can find their post here: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12529640 (https://feddit.org/post/12529640)
Previous post about their behaviour: https://lemsha.re/sh.itjust.works/post/37918115 (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37918115)
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, let me know if this is outside the boundaries of this comm and I’ll move it elsewhere. I’m mainly posting here as a follow up to the previous post.
Quote of their post follows:
Hello everyone,
in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of !europe@feddit.org as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.
We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.
First of all, we would like to remind you that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintained by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.
Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.
https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung
In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider
- has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
- as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.
Relevant criminal offenses include the following:
Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)
excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
- From 2.1.1 Criminal condoning of criminal acts
According to Section 140 No. 2 StGB, anyone who publicly condones certain types of unlawful acts listed in Sections 140, 138 and 126 StGB in a manner that is likely to disturb the public peace is liable to prosecution. Such related offenses include murder (§ 211 StGB), manslaughter (§ 212 StGB), genocide (§ 6 VStGB), crimes against humanity (§ 7 VStGB), war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 VStGB) and aggression (§ 13 VStGB), but also various offenses directed against sexual self-determination or personal freedom…”
- From 2.1.2 Incitement to hatred
Pursuant to Section 130(1) StGB, anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace, 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, incites violence or arbitrary measures or 2. attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population"(…)”1. distributes or makes available to the public any content (Section 11(3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen any content (Section 11(3)) that a) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) attacks the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or 2. produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertisements or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.”
- From 2.1.3 Incitement to hatred related to crimes under international law
"As of December 2022, the new criminal offense of incitement to hatred related to a crime under international law was introduced in Section 130 (5) StGB. According to this, it is a criminal offense to publicly condone an act of the type specified in Sections 6 to 12 of the German Criminal Code against one of the majorities of persons specified in Section 130 (1) No. 1 of the German Criminal Code in a manner that is likely to incite hatred or violence against such a majority of persons and to disturb public peace…”
- From 2.1.4 Formation and support of terrorist organizations
Pursuant to Section 129a(1) StGB, “(1) Whoever establishes an association (Section 129(2)) whose purposes or whose activities are directed towards 1. murder (§ 211) or manslaughter (§ 212) or genocide (§ 6 of the International Criminal Code) or crimes against humanity (§ 7 of the International Criminal Code) or war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or § 12 of the International Criminal Code) or 2. offenses against personal freedom in the cases of § 239a or § 239b (…), or whoever participates in such an association as a member ”
- From 2.1.5 Disseminating propaganda material of terrorist organizations and using their emblems
“Finally, it is also a punishable offense to disseminate propaganda material of terrorist organizations and to use their emblems (Sections 86, 86a StGB).”
Section 130 Incitement of masses
excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the child indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.
(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner which violates the dignity of the victims by approving, glorifying or justifying National Socialist tyranny and arbitrary rule incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
Some further links, mostly in German:
- Public approval or condoning of criminal offenses (Germany)
- Hate and Incitement in Criminal Law (Germany)
- Guidelines for the Prosecution of Antisemitic Crimes
- Working definition of antisemitism
- https://www.bundeskanzleramt.gv.at/kampagne-gegen-antisemitismus/fragen-und-antworten/antisemitismus-im-internet-moegliche-rechtliche-konsequenzen/moegliche-strafrechtliche-folgen.html (Austria)
In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.
One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.
This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested [to defederate quokk.au from us].
If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.
:::
you can’t summarize more complex topics in too few words without losing important meaning. a tldr is still a tldr if it’s one paragraph when the original was 5.
TBH, I had to google what ‘trivialising national socialism’ actually means. Could you provide your context or understanding for it in this situation?
Yes, i would like for them to actually properly outline their position. For Germans, these people are communicating in awfully convoluted ways. I thought in Germany such way to speak is nearly a sign of disrespect.
It’s a well-established concept in Germany and I’m not really sure what’s confusing or unclear about the verb “to trivialise”. It means “to make something appear less grave than it actually was/is”.
“You had a good orgasm, though”, for example, is a way to trivialise rape. It’s a good example in the sense that I feel bad writing it even in quotes. Calling the RKI “Corona-Stasi” trivialises GDR injustice as the measures taken to prevent spread of a contagious disease cannot be compared, both in goals and the means employed, to a secret police disappearing and torturing people.
Is it permissible to compare the Israeli government with the Nazi regime? Of course. But then do it, actually compare them. Go point by point, you’ll find similarities, but also stark differences. Lazy statements like “All X are Y” though are, at best, useless, and more often than not harmful. They don’t compare anything, they equate things.
If you can’t, on the top of your head, come up with five points that were significantly worse directly at the start of the NS regime, way before WWII started, than they are in Israel right now you don’t know half the history every single German high schooler knows. Meaning to say: The reason, I think, many people think the two are comparable is because they don’t understand the extent of just how fucked up the Nazis were.
How is comparing one racist genocide to another “trivialising” either of them?
Holocaust survivors are comparing Israelis to Nazis:
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/thirteen-holocaust-survivors-compare-zionist-policies-to-those-of-the-nazis/
Don’t they understand how fucked up the Nazis were, sweetie?
Yes. And if you actually read what they say then you’d see that they, I’ll quote myself,
There’s also plenty of talk about “The Holocaust is singular”.
You also see things like
I’m not sure whether you, and people like you, are unwilling or unable to understand what this is about. Why nuance matters, specifically to Germans, specifically regarding this topic. Why it’s important for us to be precise with Nazi comparisons.
feddit.org is absolutely on the side of Palestinians, as you’d know if you actually talked with people there. The genocide does get called a genocide, Israeli politicians get called fascist a lot, if you come with a talking point that smells even remotely of Kahanite you’re getting dogpiled and/or banned. And here you are, getting your underwear in a twist over “please don’t do inaccurate Nazi comparisons”.
Now I suggest you either are being deliberately dim or you are just another genocide apologist:
Enough for you, sweetie? 🙄
And for your information:
I don’t give a fuck what “specifically matters to Germans”. This is EUROPE community we are discussing, not Germany.