Feddit.org admins have responded to the recent controversy about the pro-Israel censorship on !europe@feddit.org and elsewhere on their instance. I thought I’d repost it here for greater visibility (since it’s posted in a mainly German language comm). Also, there’s a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it’s a bit hard to tell what’s being removed and how it’s affecting the discussion.

TLDR: They stand fully behind the mods of !europe@feddit.org and their actions (Edit: Because the law, or at least the way the law is being enforced, says they have to)

!Europe@feddit.org mods have also spoken up: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12550375 (https://feddit.org/post/12550375). Their stance seems to be “We live in Germany, and we don’t want the cops breaking down our door. Here’s some examples”. And that’s totally reasonable, I get that and if I lived under that law I’d be behaving the same way. The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe’s most powerful nations isn’t allowed?

Alternative Europe-centric comm, if you’re looking for something censorship-free: !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com

You can find their post here: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12529640 (https://feddit.org/post/12529640)

Previous post about their behaviour: https://lemsha.re/sh.itjust.works/post/37918115 (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37918115)

@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, let me know if this is outside the boundaries of this comm and I’ll move it elsewhere. I’m mainly posting here as a follow up to the previous post.

Quote of their post follows:

Hello everyone,

in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of !europe@feddit.org as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.

We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.

First of all, we would like to remind you that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintained by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.

Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider

  • has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
  • as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.

Relevant criminal offenses include the following:

Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)

excerpt, unofficial translation

Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.

  • From 2.1.1 Criminal condoning of criminal acts

According to Section 140 No. 2 StGB, anyone who publicly condones certain types of unlawful acts listed in Sections 140, 138 and 126 StGB in a manner that is likely to disturb the public peace is liable to prosecution. Such related offenses include murder (§ 211 StGB), manslaughter (§ 212 StGB), genocide (§ 6 VStGB), crimes against humanity (§ 7 VStGB), war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 VStGB) and aggression (§ 13 VStGB), but also various offenses directed against sexual self-determination or personal freedom…”

  • From 2.1.2 Incitement to hatred

Pursuant to Section 130(1) StGB, anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace, 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, incites violence or arbitrary measures or 2. attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population"(…)”1. distributes or makes available to the public any content (Section 11(3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen any content (Section 11(3)) that a) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) attacks the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or 2. produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertisements or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.”

  • From 2.1.3 Incitement to hatred related to crimes under international law

"As of December 2022, the new criminal offense of incitement to hatred related to a crime under international law was introduced in Section 130 (5) StGB. According to this, it is a criminal offense to publicly condone an act of the type specified in Sections 6 to 12 of the German Criminal Code against one of the majorities of persons specified in Section 130 (1) No. 1 of the German Criminal Code in a manner that is likely to incite hatred or violence against such a majority of persons and to disturb public peace…”

  • From 2.1.4 Formation and support of terrorist organizations

Pursuant to Section 129a(1) StGB, “(1) Whoever establishes an association (Section 129(2)) whose purposes or whose activities are directed towards 1. murder (§ 211) or manslaughter (§ 212) or genocide (§ 6 of the International Criminal Code) or crimes against humanity (§ 7 of the International Criminal Code) or war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or § 12 of the International Criminal Code) or 2. offenses against personal freedom in the cases of § 239a or § 239b (…), or whoever participates in such an association as a member ”

  • From 2.1.5 Disseminating propaganda material of terrorist organizations and using their emblems

“Finally, it is also a punishable offense to disseminate propaganda material of terrorist organizations and to use their emblems (Sections 86, 86a StGB).”

Section 130 Incitement of masses

excerpt, unofficial translation

Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the child indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner which violates the dignity of the victims by approving, glorifying or justifying National Socialist tyranny and arbitrary rule incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.

Some further links, mostly in German:

In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested [to defederate quokk.au from us].

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.

:::

  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
    19·
    21 hours ago

    I’m going to let this up, since it might affect future posts in YPTB. But I think we need some sort of [tag] to assign to these posts to make them easily findable in the comm. It can’t be [meta] since that should be about comm-internals. Any ideas?

  • Quokka@quokk.au
    1·
    7 minutes ago

    I don’t think they realise I can’t see any messages from them as we de-federated days ago. As for the record, I am not @Deceptichum but I rarely use Lemmy and trust their input here and what they’ve shown me is validation enough.

    The fact that Feddit.org is more upset about the comparison to Nazi’s than they are for allowing genocide deniers to exist on their instance is reason enough for our position to continue. If Feddit.org can show serious systematic changes in how it deals with its hate speech problem, we may consider changing our stance in the future.

  • Jessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    202·
    20 hours ago

    I blocked their instance. I did comment on that post, and the replies weren’t worth responding to. They can argue the granular details of what Zionism is, and is not—I don’t care. I could be factually incorrect in my replies (I am human and capable of error) but I still stand by them. At the end of the day, it’s not worth the time and effort to engage any further with them.

    I’m going to get back to the leftist memes and shitposts, just as god intended.

    I still stand firmly with the people of Palestine, and hope to be able to support them further from here on out. I don’t have any extra money to donate, nor do I have the time to be able to go out and protest (I work 3rd shift and have to sleep during the day). But I will try my best to do more.

    The Palestinians deserve for their voices to be heard loud and wide. Fuck Israel, free Palestine.

  • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    173·
    19 hours ago

    So that the gist of it is that they’re doubling down on the Zionist apologia and the IHRA definition of antisemitism basically. And are trying to frame all the issues as some trolls making accusations against them instead of something to consider. Good to know.

    Just so everyone is aware I made a !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com community thinking this might happen. If you want a Europe community that isn’t run by Zionists or an instance committed to an actively Zionist policy you should check it out.

    Also IMO as much as @Deceptichum@quokk.au may cause issues, if Quokk.au wants to defederate that is their admin’s decision and trying to blame another user because their admin chose to defederate is disgusting and childish. Shame on Feddit.org for acting like children on the playground calling someone else a “tattle-tale” for getting actioned by admins after being called out.

  • Count042@lemmy.mlEnglish
    173·
    19 hours ago

    None of this addressed the locking of post regarding the current genocide with 0-1 posts.

    They are actively removing the ability to discuss, regardless of opinion, Israel’s genocide and only Israel’s genocide.

    • AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.worksOP
      61·
      19 hours ago

      None of this addressed the locking of post regarding the current genocide with 0-1 posts.

      That was previously explained here: https://slrpnk.net/comment/15701097. I think it made things worse, but hindsight is 20/20.

      They are actively removing the ability to discuss, regardless of opinion, Israel’s genocide and only Israel’s genocide.

      That is true. For legal reasons, so the blame should fall on the govt of Germany, but true nonetheless

      • Wobble@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        101·
        18 hours ago

        This is using “for legal reasons” very broadly, too broadly and shifting any accountability away from the moderation.

        If entire country cannot be discussed “for legal reasons” on a large Europe community then should be a strong justification to move the community to somewhere that it is not a problem.

        • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
          32·
          16 hours ago

          If entire country cannot be discussed “for legal reasons”

          Sir, that’s called censorship and this is a Wendy’s

      • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        35·
        18 hours ago

        so the blame should fall on the govt of Germany,

        Is that what everybody said last time? At the Hague and whatnot?

        • AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.worksOP
          51·
          16 hours ago

          I’m not going to condemn people for choosing to follow the law while they live there and without knowing the context of their situation. The law is what has to change.

          • FelixCress@lemmy.world
            31·
            10 hours ago

            Rubbish.

            Edit: to clarify, law is being used as an excuse here. It doesn’t need to change, it is feddit admins who need to change.

  • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
    114·
    17 hours ago

    Oh so they aren’t Nazis and Zionists, they’re just poor little cowards who so scared they support Nazis and Zionists.

  • FelixCress@lemmy.world
    124·
    18 hours ago

    Dear admins of feddit,

    Instead of suspending overeager mod and apologising, you have doubled down.

    If you are afraid of “police knocking to your door” (which is moronic by the way), what about removing these cretinous mods and migrating the community to another instance? I suggest the one you mention in your post.

    • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      8·
      13 hours ago

      Unheard of even!

      Maybe we can ask the ADL if Palestine has humans worthy of life next. Surely we’ll get a the default and sane answer of “What? Yes of course.”

  • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
    145·
    19 hours ago

    an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

    where is the evidence that the law was broken. I guess not

    we fully support the moderators of europe@feddit.org icon Europe to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

    So they concede they censored it after all… Actual post for readers to review:

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/80186c3d-fad5-4003-b2be-fe3dd34701d0.png

    So at least we now know that zionist censorship will be permitted on the server. People can make up their own minds on this.

    This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar Deceptichum , who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism.

    Red herring to distract from the original censorship issue and root cause of this entire drama.

    As predicated, this response was done in bad faith to either cover up clown behavior ie unified front type thing for an org or because they are in fact Zionist enablers. We really can’t tell as of now.

    TLDR. Citation of the laws does not mean that the law was violated. They conceded original comment was censored. This is the same shit that happened with lemmy.world and luigi…

    another regime front propaganda server detected: feddit.org

    I don’t support de-federation since i don’t support unnecessary censorship but these people will need to be monitored, with time it will become obvious if they are in fact Zionist

    For purposes of disclosure: i had a ran in with them last year and coped a ban for calling out German oligarchy as being nazi nepo baby heavy. pretext for censorship was “tone”

  • surprised pikachu@feddit.orgEnglish
    132·
    21 hours ago

    Also, there’s a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it’s a bit hard to tell what’s being removed and how it’s affecting the discussion.

    this is unfortunately how lemmy currently works when it comes to instance bans. we would have to manually remove every single comment of those accounts separately for them to show up in modlog. if you look at the ages of the accounts and the names being used it should already be clear that those are all just troll accounts. if you’ve run across “anti yank” accounts in the past, these seem to be operated by the same person, with their only purpose being to troll by trying to stir up more shit on current drama (they seem to always be aware of the latest drama on lemmy) and frequently call americans and german genociders, not even being consistent in their own arguments.

    you can see some of the original contents here:

    spoiler




    these are all sockpuppet accounts with the same agenda of making lemmy a less desirable place.

  • Cait@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    84·
    17 hours ago

    A lot of comments don’t seem to understand what’s the explanation, in essence they say comparing the Gaza genocide to the Nazi era, downplays the Nazi era, which is illegal in Germany. Its not about criticism of Zionism, but comparing it to the Nazis era

  • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
    85·
    19 hours ago

    So they said, “Of course we need to make Nazis illegal, how can you even say that, why are you fighting for Nazis and supporting them.”

    And I said, “Yes but that’s not how government works. Every single law that gets made is enforced by the government. Every government in history has branded the people firmly opposed to their crimes as ‘terrorists,’ ‘hate speech,’ ‘dangerous extremists,’ and so on. You do not have the option to only make Nazis illegal. You can either have Nazis, or else you can have no Nazis, no committed animal rights / climate activitists, no pro-Palestinian protests, and so on. The same laws that make Nazis illegal will instantly get used against all kinds of people who are trying to fight against the evils of the world. And so, Nazis need to be legal.”

    And they said, “Bro STFU it doesn’t work that way what even is this, why the fuck are you sticking up for Nazis you are bad it’s so simple.”

    …

    It will always work out this way. Every time. You will not get to have a government which shares your ideas about the crimes of the powerful and your right to speak up about them, because the government is the powerful. The best you can hope for is a government which will allow you to say whatever the fuck you want, even if in their self-serving classification system it is “extremist hate speech which threatens us all.” That, you can realistically get, and it’s a very valuable thing if you can get it.