Of course Fortune can’t close an article about how stupid RTO is without turning around and advising the (probably employee rather than employer) reader of all the good things they can do back in the office.
So what can you do if your employer mandates your return-to-office? First, focus on maximizing the benefits of this life change…
The cost of commuting is just the tip, honestly.
The biggest expense is having to live near your employer, typically centrally-located in big cities with a high cost of living.
Also lost time commuting (especially if you can’t afford to live nearby).
And also increased emissions, not only from driving yourself but a collective increase by way of traffic congestion.
Also allowing employees to work remotely massively increases the pool of employees to pull from.
It may not be a 1:1 but the costs (financial and time) are largely offset.
I live in a city, I don’t own a car, I walk and ride a bike, and use public transportation and ride sharing. Granted, the convenience and cost savings can greatly depend on the city, how well it values pedestrians and public transportation, and if the housing market isn’t stupid. I mean, I’m not talking about SF or NYC here.
The more people move back to cities, the more human-friendly they become. The more that people stay and spread further into the suburbs, the more they rely on private transportation and commuting for something like a quarter of their lives. Relative to a suburban life that relies on driving everywhere, my life is very low on stress and high on comfort. “Comfort”, certainly, is relative. I can walk or take public transportation no more than twenty minutes to get to work or anywhere else.
City life can take a little more effort than stepping out of your front door into your car and dealing with traffic and spending money on gas and car insurance. But, aside from a decent pair of shoes and “comfort”, it doesn’t cost me anything to walk 10 minutes to my local market to spend $80 on a week’s worth of food.
I do fully agree that remote work increases the employee pool and benefits employers. I’m just arguing on behalf of city life being more affordable and convenient than it’s given credit for.
I’d also argue that the loss of office workers is having a very real impact on small businesses. Some of my favorite and dearly beloved businesses have closed in the past couple years because of the loss of office workers.
I think remote workers should be given a bonus, either by the state or their employer, for living in the city their company is based in. Ironically and with immense frustration, here in Philadelphia, our city actually taxes us for living AND/OR working here. Still, I would never move back to frustration of suburban life.
I live in a city, I don’t own a car, I walk and ride a bike, and use public transportation and ride sharing.
That’s great that you have that but those options don’t exist in most of the US.
I know. Most of the US is suburban and rural areas. That’s my point - that living in a city is more convenient.
We’re talking about cities…
83% of Americans live in urban areas. Maybe 10% of those have useable public transport. My city has a single train line and some buses that take roughly 4x longer to get where I’m going.
Public transportation is certainly an option in cities. Most suburbs I’ve been to at least have buses and ride share. Still, “most of the US” is rural and sprawling suburbs that do not have these options. If more people lived and worked in and near cities, the public transportation would have more public funding for improvements. Thankfully, this administration is looking into some very exciting improvements in our rail systems and offering more funding for cities for their own improvements. Fingers crossed.
Public transportation is certainly an option in cities.
Not in US cities.
I don’t know how people feel the need to lie about things like this.
You’re telling me that in the United State of America, there are cities that exist that do not have buses or subways or trollies or taxis or Ubers or bike shares? Please, tell me which city has none of these options?
Seems people are angry that you like a walkable city while they prefer to live in the suburbs. Or perhaps they are bitter that you get to live there and they don’t.
I wasn’t raised in the city. I grew up in a very Normal Rockwell painting suburb. I certainly had a different impression about city life as a kid before I moved here. What’s strange is that people do seem to have this anger and bitterness. I don’t know where it comes from. Fear of the unknown? Media bias?
In part, I think a large number of Americans believe in ultimate freedom and individuality in spite of all else - the country was basically founded (in my city) on this premise. So as soon as you suggest that people consider living in closer quarters and give up a personal vehicle in favor of relying on others for transportation, you’re breaking the brainwashing they’ve gown up with. I just find it ironic because humans are a social species that benefit from communication and cooperation. For me, my brain breaks when people fight so strongly in favor of suburban and rural living. I get that technology can bridge this gap but there’s still far more benefits to city life than anything else, in my opinion. I mean, I hate people but I could never live in isolation either.
I spent my childhood in a very rural area. I couldn’t wait to get away. I went to college and moved to a small-to-medium sized US city where I’ve now resided in the downtown area for over ten years.
The public transit is limited and the bus system is poor. Riding a bus to my job would take two hours each way, when driving takes 20 minutes. The jobs in my field are concentrated in the suburbs so I have no choice but to own a vehicle. Owning a vehicle in the city costs significantly more than in the suburbs or rural areas. I am unable to perform vehicle maintenance myself due to the unaffordability of homes here with garages or even off-street parking. My vehicle has been broken into multiple times. My insurance is higher and the cost to repair glass is a huge dent in one’s monthly income.
I have homeless people who jump the fence into a shared courtyard for my condominium and setup camp, leaving trash and other dangerous objects behind. The police come hours late if at all for these issues. My girlfriend gets catcalled and harassed by men who seem to spend all day propped against a building at the nearest street corner.
The most difficult thing for me to come to terms with is the fact that I’ve always dreamed of starting a business. My expertise is in physical industries. The kind where having a workshop or some land to keep equipment on goes a long way toward your success. Living in a city longterm would make that dream impossible.
Nothing in the city is free. It is impossible to exist here without each and every activity costing you something. Having everyone live in cities and use public transit is a wonderful thought, but it isn’t perfect.
I’m moving back to a rural area in a few years and building a house. It’ll be nice to walk outside, look up at the sky, have some peace and quiet, and just exist without being charged for it.
This is a really good point regarding money. At some point I stopped ever going outside in the city because it just costs money no matter what.
NYC and the costs are NOWHERE NEAR offset.
Then again, that is primarily because landlords are disgustingly greedy.
Higher cost of living (COL) areas do (at least sometimes) offset their costs. I think public transit availability is a very tiny piece of the puzzle in the US because unless you’re talking a handful of cities the public transit in cities isn’t guaranteed to be good enough to go car free. Additionally, many large offices are not located in transit available, urban locations (i.e. they’re near cities, but not in cities).
However, the areas that offset their costs do so because people in low COL areas often make a pittalence in comparison to those living in high COL areas.
In a high COL area, you can forgo some of the COL by living a more meager lifestyle, but in a low COL area you cannot as easily make up the additional $20-30k a year salary difference.
If you work for a company and move, sometimes they’ll even do the adjustment as a part of your move, and if you go from higher COL to lower COL they’ll make sure your paycheck reflects that.
I used to live in the city and then moved out because rent is 4500 a month for a one bedroom and I don’t feel like spending around 50k a year on housing for a small little rathole, especially when my salary cannot bear that
Also, now I’m not in the city, I have parks and trails and farms all right near me and I feel way healthier
Maybe I have to accept that I’m just super lucky to live in such a walkable and affordable city surrounded by so much open space and wildlife with better public transportation that we give it credit for. I mean, I spend less than $15k a year for 800 sq ft (plus large backyard) in of one of the more vibrant neighborhoods.
You’re either rich as fuck or live in a dump you go out of every night to spend as little time there as possible and spend the rest of your money.
Fuck off, never going back to a city.
London is hell on earth. I live an hour away and rent my own 1-bed that I leave as little as possible. Life is amazing.
EDIT: pretty hotheaded comment, sorry I was insulting, but basically what it comes down to is that city housing is small and expensive in the UK, so it makes sense to leave to a suburb/town and I would never come back, maybe not so in the US.
WTF? I make an average salary and live in an average home. I do not go “out” all the time - that’s financially irresponsible and I’m a grownass adult. You’re not even making any sense. I have no way to relate to London but I have to imagine it’s stupid expensive.
You must be middle class af then. My wage is like 80th percentile for the UK and while I could afford living in London it’d be in some studio dump or like a moldy room in a shed somewhere.
Your experience is not universal.
I’m not rich as fuck nor do I live in a dump. I don’t go out every night spending my money.
I can’t speak to London since I’ve never been there, but living in Brooklyn has been better on every metric I care about than living in the suburbs. It’s walkable. There’s stuff I want to do. There’s people.
If you’re an anti social hermit who never leaves their house then sure I guess you can live wherever. But that sounds unhealthy.
American suburbs are extra hellish tbf. I don’t own a car or even have a driver’s license, my suburban area is a small walkable town with tons of restaurants, convenience stores and grocery stores, all on one street thats pedestrianized most of the day. It’s not crowded and easy to avoid people.
I think housing in the US is generally better, but in the UK when I last lived in a city a family of three moved into an attic with a prison style shower I lived in for £1k PCM, except they paid £1300 for the privilege. I now rent my own 1-bed for less and can save money.
If anything honestly living in a city is actually factually unhealthy, people weren’t meant to be around that many people, not to mention the pollution. Being a good amount of space away from any other people is the best feeling tbh.
Each to their own though I respect you for having a well formed take. Most city people like some friends who stayed after uni just deny the problems of cities, rather than simply state they care more about the advantages.
Your suburb sounds way nicer than the one I grew up in. It was like a 45 minute walk to the “main Street”, with no sidewalks for most of it. A guy got hit by a car and killed at the intersection closest to the house when I was living there, too. Visiting any friends without a car impractical and/or “walk along the highway” dangerous.
A friend of mine lived in Beacon, NY for a year. It was kind of nice to visit. Walkable main street, restaurants and shops. Lots of space and nature. I don’t think I’d want to live there full time though. Like it’s cool that they have a Thai restaurant, but they have A Thai restaurant. There’s like 20 that deliver to me here, and a handful I can walk to.
If anything honestly living in a city is actually factually unhealthy, people weren’t meant to be around that many people, not to mention the pollution. Being a good amount of space away from any other people is the best feeling tbh.
This is interesting and I wonder how much is just individual. I get sad in the suburbs when there’s not a lot of people around. It feels lonely. The crowds here feel like a comfortable blanket. I like knowing that if I wreck my bike people will be there to help (that happened to me once, memorably)
I don’t know about pollution. That probably varies a lot by specifics. My parents lived in a suburb really close to a highway, so that probably wasn’t good for our air. New York I think is pretty good air quality because of its location and mass transit, where like Houston or LA I think have much worse smog problems.
It was like a 45 minute walk to the “main Street”, with no sidewalks for most of it.
It doesn’t sound like you grew up in the suburbs, man. It sounds like you grew up in a fairly small town.
That’s just American suburbs, honestly. Many if not most subdvisions are designed to be pedestrian-hostile with the specific intent of excluding – shall we say – a certain class of person who doesn’t have access to a car, and are thrown up wherever a builder managed to snag a contiguous chunk of greenfield site vaguely near a major city rather than being planned and positioned to for convenience to mass transit and amenities.
Heck, I live in a old streetcar suburb, that’s basically in the city proper, and while it’s only a ten minute walk to the nearest grocery store, I don’t walk it because a) it’s a fucking Walmart and I’m not giving them any of my money if I can help it and b) it’d require me to walk along two busy stroads, one way while lugging sacks of groceries. I’d prefer not to get mowed down by somebody coming off the highway who’s not paying attention at the crosswalk if I can help it.
people weren’t meant to be around that many people
There’s a middle ground between a population living on top of one another and sprawling suburbs. I would strongly argue that humans are creatures that thrive on social interaction. Today’s culture has twisted that on end driving us away from one another - THAT is unhealthy.
I do take the point that crowded environments sometimes aren’t good for our physical health. Indoor plumbing and sewage systems solved that issue on one hand, but on the other hand we just lived through a pandemic that may or may not have been exasperated by close living quarters.
Maybe if we were less prone to be dicks to one another (because governments and corporations thrive on our anger, fear, and division) we wouldn’t have been so polarized during the pandemic and had saved a few hundred thousand lives.
I have social interaction all the time, we’re having it here right now on Lemmy, I also talk on VRC and occasionally visit ppl IRL. Social interaction with strangers though, especially forced as it is in cities, isn’t supposed to be a thing, that’s like why prisons are so horrible
Also allowing employees to work remotely massively increases the pool of employees to pull from.
This is why it’s inevitable that remote work will win out. The companies which embrace it are going to beat their competition.
We had a skip-level with a director today who told us our 3 day in office is going to become a 5 day. When asked why, he couldn’t articulate a single good reason. It was a “management decision” made by a bunch of tone-deaf fucks who never go to the office or get paid so much money that the cost is trivial. It’s time to start unionizing everywhere. Fuck these class traitors.
Time to brush up that resume, WFH or hybrid is the new norm.
Fully remote is the only way. In my experience hybrid workplaces are just as toxic. It could turn into full time office out of the blue like mentioned here or generally the ones showing up to the office get a bit of a preferential treatment if the boss also regularly shows up at the office.
Not all jobs can be remote, while some can. Not all remote jobs can be 100% remote. That’s great if you can, but someone has to go swap out failed disks or see things hands-on because of whatever reason. And there are isolated networks too.
Our hybrid situation works and the manager knows it. He’s in the office all the time because he’s trying to be available to everyone, but we are scattered around that and other campuses. He feels it’s part of his job while understanding other jobs can be remote or hybrid. He only cares about the end result. Not saying upper management might say something stupid, but not likely as we’ve had a flexible work environment for ages. Since the Before Time.
Not all jobs can be remote, while some can. Not all remote jobs can be 100% remote. That’s great if you can, but someone has to go swap out failed disks or see things hands-on because of whatever reason. And there are isolated networks too.
I’m curious why even bring that up? No one is suggesting jobs that physically require your presences in a geographic location to be Fully Remote. When people are saying things like “all jobs should be fully remote” they’re referring to all jobs that can be fully remote should be fully remote.
RGE
I wish there was a union for office workers who were forced back into the office
We need to start founding them on our own, it isn’t just going to happen. These fucking CEOs and investors need to be put in their place. They’re deliberately flexing on us, deliberately increasing our stress levels and impacting our lives and health. These fucking leeches would be nothing without us doing the real work for them.
When I was going to the office, parking downtown was $21 a day.
So $105 a week just to park to go to work.
Now, I COULD have taken a bus/train for $5.60 a day… But that would mean adding an extra hour to my commute in the morning and an extra hour and a half at night.
$21 - $5.60 = Saving $15.40 a day, but losing 2.5 hours.
My time is worth more than $6.16 an hour.
WFH I save ALL $21, plus gas money, plus not eating out for lunch or dinner.
After doing that for 3 years, I had $30,000 in the bank and bought a house.
I work for a FANG company and 2 years ago I willingly took a 13% pay cut on the condition I could work from home permanently. The pay cut hurt but my productivity and output jumped so high that received a promotion along with bump in pay a year later. Being a tech company, they track a lot of metrics around productivity and I know I am 28% more productive when working from home. I refuse to return to an office just because of office politics and drama that distracts me from doing my job. I’m not there to socialize.
I genuinely have no sympathy for anyone who works for these parasites.
A bit weird for those with no choice.
You have no choice but to work for these companies? Lol.
How does anyone survive without working for them?
People get tied into locations because of family and mortgages, it’s reductive to say what you did.
So there’s no way for those people to leave?
Doing so would mean death?
Or do you think the only viable solutions are easy ones?
Does anyone have knowledge and or experience with forming a union in the US? After doing some mild research I failed to find a union that represents telework / work from home employees, specifically those who are facing return to office mandates from their corporate overlords
Love WFH for taking care of animals, stress free guilt free breaks, all my home comforts, but I do feel extra sedative when working for hours and do get a bit lonely wishing I could make more coworker friends, but they’re on the other side of the continent
Me too. I miss my chill office culture where everyone showed up, but the norm was roll in anytime before 1030 or 11am and leave early if you need to. And expected to work from home a day or maybe 2 a week if needed. As long as you showed up for the important meetings in person and attended had a known presence in the office while you were there, it was all good. And being in the office felt good because it was a good collaborative environment. Now I can opt in to go to the office, and have all the sedative isolation of home without the comforts.
You’re the first person I’ve seen to describe my experience too, I feel like I’m the sole crazy person who wouldn’t mind more in office time. But I’m also lucky in that my office is a 15 minute bike ride away, I’d drive off a bridge if I had to commute an hour by car every day
New yorker here. Sometimes the MTA sucked, but my 40m door to door gave me time to listen to a podcast in the subway and decompress from work before stepping in my front door. I also read the news a lot more. I don’t do those things nearly as much now. Also beers in the office and happy hours where team workers forced me to stop working at a reasonable hour were helpful to make me turn off the workaholic side of me.
Curious. Are you fully remote or do you still have an office to go into? Is there any culture left in your office if you do go in?
The cost of it doesn’t bother me as much as the time involved. If I’m showing up and leaving at the assigned hour I’m burning 30 or 40 minutes in the car each way. Adding another 15 to 30 minutes to get ready to go in versus my just getting dressed and walking into my home office.
Driving’s always subliminally stressful. The whole time you’re driving your subconsciously watching the cars around you and looking for problems. Your heart rate goes up and whenever you get to your location It takes a little while to get back in your groove. There’s a nonzero transition period there. The last thing I want to do after driving home for 40 minutes and heavy traffic is to barrel right into chores but there I am.
what’s even worse is the facr that if they ruled transport was clock in time everywhere would magically be embracing work from home.
The most challenging aspect of returning to the office is the commute. This isn’t surprising because commutes of only 30 minutes are linked to higher stress and anger, while 45 minutes or more is linked to poorer overall well-being, daily mood, and health.
“OH no. Those poor white collar employees”
So anyways, here I was breaking my body doing a job that has to be done in person but earns less pay and benefits when al…
And you know what? I think you should be earning more and have better benefits. Better than me, probably.
We have no quarry with each other. All of us deserve better.
“I can’t work from home, so nobody should!!!”
Look, when people who don’t not need to be present at an office can stay at home, it frees up the streets/trains etc for all the people who do. WFH benefits everyone, except owners of office buildings I guess, but fuck them lol
So you are someone who will pull down others to your own level of misery? What a jealous piece of shit you are.
You think Execs and Managers come in to the office daily?
Are people forgetting that the salaries were high in high cost of living areas to account for this cost. In the new normal, should employees expect pay cuts, or should employees that opt in to in office expect higher pay or stipends?
Also, curious about tax advantaged commuter benefits. Sure sticker cost is a months groceries, but if you are commuting and able to pay that pre tax for Metro or rail passes, it’s only 66 percent of the sticker cost.
Also I think the pet and childcare costs are interesting. For child care, is that assuming like 1 or 2 extra hours of childcare per day?
Seems like everyone in this thread is okay with pay cuts as it is less than the benefit.
This article is saying the average is ~$500 a month. Imagine pre pandemic work norms. If your employer offered you $500 less a month, but the trade off was you got to work fully remote, would you take it?
So you’re saying people should take a paycut because they are more productive?
It’s more having your cake and eating it too. When pandemic hit and you got to keep your salary and work remote, maybe move to a cheaper area, no one complained that they kept all the benefit of the in office pay. But now that you got to keep the same pay, and are asked to come back into the office, you aren’t suddenly making less money. You’re just paying for the cost that was always expected as an employee that was hopefully accounted for in giving you a reasonable salary.
And some of these costs that add up to “a month of groceries” can be mitigated by having flexible in office policy. It’s not that transport takes a month of groceries. The cost is transport + childcare + pet care. For some childless and petless workers the cost of in office transport isnt that bad, and might be tax free if you have programs for it. And child care and pet care can be reduced with flexible in office requirements. Some companies used to let people bring their dogs to the office, for example.
Many large companies that support wfh, set pay scales based on where you live, not where they are. If you live in a low cost of living area you get paid less. Live in a high cost of living area get paid more.
Before you start jabbering about how companies don’t do that… They do. Just because you don’t work for one, or don’t know about your own companies policies you should look it up. Most companies are pretty discreet about it and people don’t talk about taking pay cuts to move to low cost of living area but it is common.
Yep. The way I’ve heard of it actually happening to folks where I work is when they moved during the pandemic their pay didn’t immediately change. But when they got their promotion, they got a 0% percent increase because that was when they recalculated the cost of living adjustment. So maybe they got a 12% raise, but moved to a place with a 15% lower cost of living. So they weren’t going to piss off the employee by rewarding with a pay cut, but use that as the time to reset compensation leveling.
I expect to be paid based on the value of my work, not based on how much my boss personally thinks I need. If I ever got a pay cut that was justified by my own low cost-of-living, I would quit on the spot. Don’t punish me for being frugal. I’m saving for as early of a retirement as I can afford.
Cost of living adjustments are real. The value of your work is based in part of market rate. And part of that market rate is based on location due to various costs of livings, taxes, laws etc. I think the thing is the pre pandemic salaries should have accounted for those factors, but when those factors change due to people moving etc. it is reasonable to expect the question to be asked about adjustment. You’re not being punished for being frugal.
However, our research found that returning to an office often is a major disruption to one’s routine, foundational work, and overall life experience.
Damn work. Disrupting their routine and life experience.
What? It’s a return to the office, not work. It’s not the 8 hours; it’s the additional hour (if you’re lucky) getting there and back which, for some jobs, brings no discernable benefit.
Well, the office is obviously the place where the work takes place. It was probably relatively okay for you when you started the job, then the pandemic hit and now you think it should be different. But it’s not up to you to decide whether it makes sense to go to the office, that’s for your employer to decide - you know, the guys who pay your salary.
Yep, but it’s up to me to decide to fuck those execs and leave. And guess what? Almost all of my coworkers who were the same age left too. Within 2 years, my cohort was largely gone.
I took a mild pay cut to live closer to home and work remotely in a field that I feel more passionately about. My only regret is that I miss the people I work with, but half of them are gone or reassigned anyway.
But hey, the people who paid my salary are more than welcome for investing in my early career training. All in all, they spent more money on me than I earned for them.
Yes. Get used to it corpo shill, or we’ll unionize.
My heartfelt condolences to all those affected. Having to drive to work is certainly very cruel and completely unexpected. Life is one of the hardest.
I don’t even have a driver’s license lmao, nobody I know does either. Cry harder, corpo shill.
You joke, but my quality of life nosedived significantly when an accident caused my commute to become 2-2.5 hours total each day for like a full month.
Which repeated like 6 months later because of another accident.
What you would say with irony, I say with conviction.
You are free not to work and live the life you’re dreaming of.
